Ukraine (11 Viewers)

SaintJ

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Say, anyone notice that a crazy dictator who runs a country that is essentially one giant criminal mob is attacking a neighboring democracy?

Just sayin.'
 

kizzy821

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I'm trying to figure out the significance of Putin "recognizing the independence" of those two regions they're talking about in the news.

All the stories read as if everyone already knows what that means. What does it mean... and why is it a further sign he's about to invade Ukraine?

They cite the headline, then move on to what the US is doing in response. But WHHHHY does that warrant a response? It's driving me a little batty not understanding it.
 
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SaintJ

SaintJ

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I'm trying to figure out the significance of Putin "recognizing the independence" of those two regions they're talking about in the news.

Live CNN update -- he issued the order to move in.


Imagine that Wisconsin and Minnesota had a reasonably-sized but minority population of ethnic Candians. Canada had been supplying separatists who wanted to secede and join Canada. Suddenly Canada puts 200,000 troops on the border and recognizes Wisconsin and Minnesota as independent countries.
All the stories read as if everyone already knows what that means. What does it mean... and why is it a further sign he's about to invade Ukraine?
See above.
They cite the headline, then move on to what the US is doing in response. But WHHHHY does that warrant a response? It's driving me a little batty not understanding it.
If we don't respond, he's going to continue to expand their reach in to additional democracies in an attempt to destabilize the West, making it harder to stop his mob-nation from bleeding dry the citizens of Russia and any occupied territories.

You might remember perhaps Europe in 1939 and 1940.
 

gboudx

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I know there's a thread about Ukraine on MAP. I lurk there sometimes and have seen it. I guess the big issue with being on the EE is how politically charged the discussions get.
 
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SaintJ

SaintJ

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I know there's a thread about Ukraine on MAP. I lurk there sometimes and have seen it. I guess the big issue with being on the EE is how politically charged the discussions get.
I guess if "support international democracy" vs. "don't care" is political, you may be right.

I see it as more moral and philosophical, but I looked for the moral and philosophical board and I just couldn't find it, so I went with EE.
 

gboudx

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I guess if "support international democracy" vs. "don't care" is political, you may be right.

I see it as more moral and philosophical, but I looked for the moral and philosophical board and I just couldn't find it, so I went with EE.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with starting a thread here. I agree its something that can be discussed, but people would need to check their political party alliances at the door, because this can easily get driven down into a politics sheet hole. I like your approach of "support international democracy" and hopefully the discussion can stay within those bounds.
 

kizzy821

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Live CNN update -- he issued the order to move in.


Imagine that Wisconsin and Minnesota had a reasonably-sized but minority population of ethnic Candians. Canada had been supplying separatists who wanted to secede and join Canada. Suddenly Canada puts 200,000 troops on the border and recognizes Wisconsin and Minnesota as independent countries.

See above.

If we don't respond, he's going to continue to expand their reach in to additional democracies in an attempt to destabilize the West, making it harder to stop his mob-nation from bleeding dry the citizens of Russia and any occupied territories.

You might remember perhaps Europe in 1939 and 1940.
I see. I didn't quite understand why his declaration (that he sees them as independent) means anything. Just because he sees them this way, does it mean they ARE? And how does it factor into his invasion? Does it mean he will leave them alone? I should've been paying more attention.
 

town123

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Not good at all. Hopefully the US will jump in quickly if Russia invades Ukraine, as Europe probably wouldn't be able to survive another
You're going to have to narrow that down.
Ah crap., I thought Canada was safe since your last election
 

St. Widge

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If we don't respond, he's going to continue to expand their reach in to additional democracies in an attempt to destabilize the West, making it harder to stop his mob-nation from bleeding dry the citizens of Russia and any occupied territories.

You might remember perhaps Europe in 1939 and 1940.

I guess the question is what response should we make? We could try, and apparently are going to try economic sanctions, but those seldom if ever do much of anything especially since Putin doesn't play by the rules of civilized society. I guess we could prop up NATO more, but will that do anything but provoke a larger war?

I'm all for stopping Putin, but I'm not sure anything short of U.S. involvement in a war in Eastern Europe is going to actually stop him and I don't think we really want to get involved in a war in Eastern Europe.
 

gboudx

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I see. I didn't quite understand why his declaration (that he sees them as independent) means anything. Just because he sees them this way, does it mean they ARE? And how does it factor into his invasion? Does it mean he will leave them alone? I should've been paying more attention.
My understanding is those 2 areas have had some form of continuous conflict between Ukrainian forces and the Russian separatists. Now that Putin says Russia is recognizing their independence, it opens the door for his invasion. He has ordered Russian troops into those areas as “peacekeepers“. But to the West, once Russian forces cross the border, they’re invading Ukraine because it’s Ukrainian territory. And since those areas have been in continuous conflict, Russian troops being there will make it easy to say they were targeted by the Ukrainian forces and therefore justify Putin’s military actions against Ukraine.

This is how I understand how this can all play out. Oh and don’t think China isn’t watching all of this considering their desires to invade Taiwan.
 

superchuck500

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superchuck500

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My understanding is those 2 areas have had some form of continuous conflict between Ukrainian forces and the Russian separatists. Now that Putin says Russia is recognizing their independence, it opens the door for his invasion. He has ordered Russian troops into those areas as “peacekeepers“. But to the West, once Russian forces cross the border, they’re invading Ukraine because it’s Ukrainian territory. And since those areas have been in continuous conflict, Russian troops being there will make it easy to say they were targeted by the Ukrainian forces and therefore justify Putin’s military actions against Ukraine.

This is how I understand how this can all play out. Oh and don’t think China isn’t watching all of this considering their desires to invade Taiwan.

China didn’t invade Taiwan after Putin took Crimea - I don’t know how much linkage there really is. But Putin is basically doing what Hitler did in Czechoslovakia: claim that the civilians there are historically Russian and have asked for protection as a pretext to invade and annex land from another sovereign nation.

The Russian-backed “separatists” don’t even control those entire regions, only sections. It sounds like Putin is going to treat both regions as “breakaway”. That would be very sad for Ukraine.
 

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