Catholic Church Scandal! (6 Viewers)

[Consigliere]

I am a Catholic. I have worked for the Archdiocese. I believe that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Christ. I recite the Creed with zero hesitation.

Curious - do you believe Jesus' mother was a virgin?

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Curious - do you believe Jesus' mother was a virgin?

On the wall in my classroom:
Non-fiction teaches through information
Fiction teaches through imagination

Pointing out the inconsistencies of particular belief systems (which I have done numerous times, I’m not removing myself from this observation) misses the point of the belief system and it’s potential impact

otoh people who hold their spiritual beliefs as factual information others should share also miss the point

We should be able to hold the inconsistencies simultaneously

 

[Consigliere]

On the wall in my classroom:
Non-fiction teaches through information
Fiction teaches through imagination

That's smart.

We should be able to hold the inconsistencies simultaneously

That's not smart. Either Jesus was magic or he wasn't. If he was, maybe we should let his church control our schools and governments. If he wasn't then we shouldn't. Fact or fiction.

 

[Nisey55]

Curious - do you believe Jesus' mother was a virgin?

I'm curious as to why you asked this particular question, not condemning you for asking, just curious. I can't speak for boy of wonder but having worked for the archdiocese I'm assuming he was raised Catholic and the Virgin Mary having conceived Jesus through a miracle of God is part of our teachings and beliefs. Not embracing the church (I no longer do) doesn't mean you stop believing in God and his miracles.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

That's smart.

That's not smart. Either Jesus was magic or he wasn't. If he was, maybe we should let his church control our schools and governments. If he wasn't then we shouldn't. Fact or fiction.

That’s the conundrum isn’t it?
(And it’s why I added the implication that no one should make others believe mythos)
BUT fact/fiction is a constructed binary from many POVs
As Einstein and most scientists since and nearly all artists demonstrated, even our facts are observer dependent
There is no absolute privileged vantage point
Fact/fiction should work together not be weapons against the other side

 

[Boy_of_wonder75]

Curious - do you believe Jesus' mother was a virgin?

Perpetually? I'm no longer sure. At the time of Christ's birth? Absolutely.

 

[Boy_of_wonder75]

I am genuinely curious b/c even though i grew up Catholic (under the NOLA archdiocese) , but no longer practice- what is it that makes you think that the Archdiocese of NOLA is any more evil & corrupt than the entire Catholic organization writ large ? We know that priests have been shifted around to different parishes throughout the US, possibly the world, when they’ve committed crimes.. and we know that the Catholic Church has exclusionary policies preventing women from becoming priests , and preventing priests from getting married or having families or even romantic relationships (which attracts all manner of deviants and miscreants to the papacy).. and by my last count, we know that the Catholic Church has paid out in excess of half a Billion dollars to settle child abuse claims…. So what is it that makes you think that the NOLA archdiocese is any worse than the entire worldwide Catholic Church ?

This is the only one i have personal experience with.

 

[Boy_of_wonder75]

That's smart.

That's not smart. Either Jesus was magic or he wasn't. If he was, maybe we should let his church control our schools and governments. If he wasn't then we shouldn't. Fact or fiction.

I don't believe he was "magic." I have faith and, therefore, am open to the idea that I'm wrong. It would be wrong of me to impose my faith on others.

 

[Consigliere]

As Einstein and most scientists since and nearly all artists demonstrated, even our facts are observer dependent
There is no absolute privileged vantage point
Fact/fiction should work together not be weapons against the other side

I always appreciate your vantage points, but come on. This is a man who lived/died/maybe-lived-again in the past, not a cat in a box who is maybe-alive/maybe-dead in the present.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

This is a man who lived and died in the past

Possibly
But I’m not seeing how that ‘fact’ is being used here

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Perpetually? I'm no longer sure. At the time of Christ's birth? Absolutely.

Only Siths believe in absolutes

 

[Consigliere]

I'm curious as to why you asked this particular question, ... he was raised Catholic and the Virgin Mary having conceived Jesus through a miracle of God is part of our teachings and beliefs.

I asked because it's kind of a litmus test about the trust we put in these molester-enablers discussed above in the thread.

Y'all believe it? What's the evidence?

Paul's letters (48-62) - the only Christian writings within Mary's lifetime. Never says she was a virgin. Says the opposite - Jesus was born of David's line (literally spermatoi in Greek). Romans 1:1-4.

Mark (c. 70) - the original surviving gospel. No virgin birth. God says "you are my son" after baptism.

Matthew (c. 80) - virgin birth after Wise Men visit Mary's house in Bethlehem and after Herod kills the babies (didn't happen). Why? Because "it was foretold." But was it? Isaiah 7 speaks of a woman (almah) not a virgin (betula) who was already pregant (no future tense). How could "Matthew" mess up so badly? Because he spoke Greek and was reading the Septuagent which says parthenoi (kind of like our "maiden").

Luke (c. 85) - virgin birth amidst a totally different nativity scene (manger in Bethlehem because originally from Nazareth; no wise men; no baby-killings; census that you had to go home for (didn't happen).

John (c. 90) - no nativity scene.

That's the evidence. My whole point is to say that you believe Mary was a virgin not because of evidence but because these molester-enablers say so. They and their enablers brainwashed you with this stuff.

So sorry for the lecture, but this is to follow-up on the post above that asked, quite cogently, why believe in the rest of the church while admitting that the latest branch that got caught is evil? They're all in cahoots.

 

[Nisey55]

I always appreciate your vantage points, but come on. This is a man who lived and died in the past, not a cat in a box who might be dead in the present.

This is just my opinion but fact/fiction is a function of the brain. Faith is a function of what I believe is the spirit that lives within me. To me it's just a part of me and I don't know how to be anything else. Not to say that faith is easy to hang on to, it is a daily struggle. Fact or fiction is part of being an inhabitant on earth, faith is part of another world beyond my comprehension that is not supposed to be truly understood, I'm just human at this point.

 

[Consigliere]

"Faith means believin' what you know ain't so."

 

[Bayouboy]

"Faith means believin' what you know ain't so."

I am a practicing Catholic (born and raised that way) and what you say here is pretty accurate. I'll admit my mind tells me a lot of the teachings of the church are not provable and I have trouble at times "believing". My logical, scientific mind tells me it's all a farce. But then the faith stuff enters.....and you look around at the physical world and universe and ask yourself "how is all of this just coincidence?". So, your point is valid and well taken. Each person's beliefs are much harder to analyze and prove. It's a fascinating discussion when you drill down.