- Joined
- Oct 11, 2006
- Messages
- 54,517
- Reaction score
- 87,417
Offline
Facts -- these days -- just don't mean what they're supposed to mean.
Catholic Church Scandal! (4 Viewers)
- Thread starternolaswede
- Start date
- Latest activity Latest activity:
Online
Literally
Booker
All-Pro
Online
Regarding Paul, in that passage he doesn't actually provide testimony on Jesus' genealogy, he's making a theologically based statement. Paul is explicit that everything he says about Jesus he learned either from scripture or direct revelation, "not from any man" (Galatians 1:12), and in this case he's pulling this knowledge of Jesus from 2 Samuel 7:12-16.
In that passage, God tells David that after he dies God will take his sperm and create a Son who will build his throne and eternal kingdom, which early Christians later interpreted be secretly about Jesus. So Paul says Jesus was made from David's sperm not because they had any records stating such, but because scripture said it must be so.
A further interesting note about that is that, though the modern translation of Paul is that Jesus was born of David's line, what Paul literally says is Jesus was formed by God with David's sperm, using the same word he uses to discuss Adam being formed by God with clay (ginomai) instead of the word he uses elsewhere to describe one as naturally born (gennaô). So again, he's talking theologically, not historically.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 6,823
- Reaction score
- 10,346
Offline
LOL nobody thinks Paul had a birth certificate or DNA analysis. He's making stuff up right and left. He sees a light and thinks he knows Jesus better than Peter & Co.
Thanks for the ginomai/gennao distinction. Do you think that's referring to David's "line" or his actual sperm? and is it a point in favor of Paul thinking Mary was a virgin?
Last edited:
Booker
All-Pro
Online
Obviously there was no birth certificate or DNA analysis (smart arse!
), but there's also no evidence of any oral or written history either behind that, just repurposed scripture, which is what I was pointing out.Regarding the virgin birth, I don't think that had been thought up yet during Paul's time. He makes no mention of it nor Mary, nor do any other writers, until that story debuted in Matthew, written a least a generation after Paul died, with Matthew repurposing Isaiah 7:14. (There's even a clever little twist in Matthew, as Isaiah reads "the young girl/virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel." Jesus is never in fact referred to as Immanuel, which translates to "God is with you," but there is a play on this in the last line of Matthew, where he concludes his Gospel with Jesus saying "I am with you.")
Regarding what Paul meant, sperm or line, he literally and specifically says God made Jesus' flesh from David's sperm/seed, not that he was merely born of his line (as many if not most or even all first century Jews would have believed themselves to be descendants of David), so I lean to that intent. But the former wouldn't preclude the latter, and either way it's a theological construct of a zealot, so he's just repeating and rationalizing what he "learned" from 2 Samuel.
Offline
Sounds good, but @Consigliere touched upon a fundamental, core aspect of the Christian belief system, not an inconsistency in the story..
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 6,823
- Reaction score
- 10,346
Offline
TIL. Stuff like this is why I love the Bible. The more you read (really read) the more fascinating it is.
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 6,823
- Reaction score
- 10,346
Offline
Well, it kind of is, but it kind of isn't. Whether and when Mary did it with Joseph is a superficial detail to the rest of the story. But some folks seem to be so certain that she didn't re: Jesus, so it is a useful topic going back up this thread re: the molester-enablers who have been brainwashing folks with this stuff for 2000 years.
Offline
The Virgin Mary? Definitely a fundamental part of Christianity, and especially Catholicism.
Boy_of_wonder75
Here.
Online
The first Chapter of Luke makes it pretty clear, though, at least being a virgin through Jesus' conception. As far as her perpetual virginity, I agree that it seem tangential. Thomas Aquinas also didn't believe in it. It's one of the few things the Catholic Church rejects from Aquinas' work.
Offline
What’s wild, at least to me, as someone who grew up in the church, had first communion & confession, served as an altar boy and the whole deal- is that Mary conceiving a child without ‘getting busy’ as it were, is not even the most far-fetched belief.. turning water into wine, anyone ? How about a guy literally parting a sea ?? I mean, if anyone here who is a true believer wants to come out and say ‘Hey, those things never happened, they are just symbolic’ - then we can have a conversation.. but if you are gonna sit here and insult my intelligence by claiming they did happen, i just dont know that an honest conversation is a possibility .
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2002
- Messages
- 6,823
- Reaction score
- 10,346
Offline
Well it’s a contention of fact that numerous Catholics have killed and died for, so in that sense you’re right.
My point is that Jesus could have been and done everything they say, but it doesn’t matter what his (human) parents did or did not do. Methinks Matthew and Luke may have been more or less sincere in their reporting of the general morality/metaphysics of Jesus and his message, but they had to make up sexy facts to sell their story. (In this case not-sexy facts.). You got the walk-on-water to match Orion, you got the water-into-wine to match Dionysus, but to impress the pagans you got to match divine parentage of Hercules, etc.
Again, to tie it back to the top of this thread, it seems conspicuous that the same people who strive to maintain the secrecy of Mary having sex with a man, also strive to maintain the secrecy of their cohorts having sex with boys.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Jul 18, 1998
- Messages
- 24,788
- Reaction score
- 53,354
Online
A judge’s decision to remove himself from handling the child rape and kidnapping trial of a retired Roman Catholic priest in New Orleans left the victim in the case devastated, and that kind of disappointment “is why these victims don’t come forward”, said Richard Trahant, an attorney for the star witness in the case.
Judge Benedict Willard’s decision on Tuesday to remove himself from handling the trial of 93-year-old Lawrence Hecker, who has previously admitted to child molestation, stunned observers. Willard had presided over the case for more than a year after it was first filed in early September 2023, and his decision occurred on the morning jury selection was scheduled to begin.
Willard cited “disrespect” from one of the assistant district attorneys prosecuting the aging Hecker, who on Tuesday morning also happened to be hospitalized apparently with a urinary tract infection.
Tuesday’s chaotic sequence of events resulted in at least the eighth delay in the case since January and left Trahant’s client unsure of when Hecker may be tried.
“This dude put his life on hold, came down here, prepared … and [on the morning of jury selection] the defendant has a UTI and the judge suddenly recuses himself,” Trahant said about his client after the case was transferred from Willard’s courtroom. “It was like a double safeguard” against going to trial, he said.
Trahant added: “Hecker might live to be 100. But I would imagine every time a trial date comes up, he is going to have some kind of ailment.”……
www.theguardian.com
Judge Benedict Willard’s decision on Tuesday to remove himself from handling the trial of 93-year-old Lawrence Hecker, who has previously admitted to child molestation, stunned observers. Willard had presided over the case for more than a year after it was first filed in early September 2023, and his decision occurred on the morning jury selection was scheduled to begin.
Willard cited “disrespect” from one of the assistant district attorneys prosecuting the aging Hecker, who on Tuesday morning also happened to be hospitalized apparently with a urinary tract infection.
Tuesday’s chaotic sequence of events resulted in at least the eighth delay in the case since January and left Trahant’s client unsure of when Hecker may be tried.
“This dude put his life on hold, came down here, prepared … and [on the morning of jury selection] the defendant has a UTI and the judge suddenly recuses himself,” Trahant said about his client after the case was transferred from Willard’s courtroom. “It was like a double safeguard” against going to trial, he said.
Trahant added: “Hecker might live to be 100. But I would imagine every time a trial date comes up, he is going to have some kind of ailment.”……
‘This is why victims don’t come forward’: trial delayed for New Orleans priest charged with child rape
Lawrence Hecker’s trial delay calls to mind other ill-fated attempts to prosecute allegedly abusive Catholic clergymen
- Joined
- Jul 18, 1998
- Messages
- 24,788
- Reaction score
- 53,354
Online
Court watchdogs and advocates for victims of sexual abuse are calling for a New Orleans judge to be punished and voted out of office after he controversially delayed the trial of retired Catholic priest charged with child rape and kidnapping – on the morning of jury selection.
Judge Benedict Willard’s critics say his angry outbursts have been a problem over more than two decades on the bench. But they are raising fresh concerns after Willard’s decision to remove members of the local district attorney’s office during a rape trial in August reverberated to affect the eagerly anticipated trial of Lawrence Hecker, 93, on Tuesday.
According to court records, during the rape trial of Freddie Sterling on 21 August, Willard was notified that a male juror had allegedly come on to a female district attorney’s office employee. In a discussion that was not heard in open court, Willard allegedly called the DA’s staffer a “distraction” and ordered her removed from court, rather than replacing the juror who had allegedly commented on her looks and made suggestive comments.
When Ned McGowan, the second-in-command at the DA’s office, asked Willard to put his actions and reasons on the record, the judge immediately ordered McGowan removed from court. McGowan accused the judge of “cowardice” as bailiffs escorted him out.
“Go get me some more deputies,” Willard said, according to a court transcript. “I’m asking you to leave once again out of the disrespect that you’re performing in terms of dealing with this court. Deputy, the first assistant DA needs to leave. He’s being disruptive, disrespectful and improper.”…….
Outside court, a frustrated assistant district attorney Andre Gaudin compared the effects of Willard’s conduct to the impact of Hecker’s abuse in the 1960s and 70s, which Hecker admitted during an August 2023 interview with WWL Louisiana and the Guardian.
Hecker, “with his position of authority and esteem and respect, was able to victimize them,” Gaudin said. “And now we have another person with authority who has, through their decision on the morning of trial to make a recusal, caused a massive delay. And that is exceptionally frustrating for everyone involved.”
Aaron Hebert is one of Hecker’s alleged victims. He, too, said he was frustrated with Willard.
“He should have recused himself a month or so ago when all this came up about holding [McGowan] in contempt,” Hebert said. “This is just another method, a way of putting everything off … Victims and survivors are, once again, hurt again.”
The DA’s office had 11 witnesses ready to testify, including several who say Hecker molested them, as well as the alleged victim in the case before Willard, who traveled from out of state to give testimony on how Hecker suffocated him to the point of unconsciousness and raped him in a church in 1975, when he was in high school.
“And [the DA’s office] had to go through the sordid details of these abuses at the hand of this pedophile priest with all of these victims, to prepare them for the trial,” Goyeneche said. “Everyone walked into court expecting that this is the day of justice, only to find out that the judge, without any advance warning, decided to transfer the case.”………
www.theguardian.com
Judge Benedict Willard’s critics say his angry outbursts have been a problem over more than two decades on the bench. But they are raising fresh concerns after Willard’s decision to remove members of the local district attorney’s office during a rape trial in August reverberated to affect the eagerly anticipated trial of Lawrence Hecker, 93, on Tuesday.
According to court records, during the rape trial of Freddie Sterling on 21 August, Willard was notified that a male juror had allegedly come on to a female district attorney’s office employee. In a discussion that was not heard in open court, Willard allegedly called the DA’s staffer a “distraction” and ordered her removed from court, rather than replacing the juror who had allegedly commented on her looks and made suggestive comments.
When Ned McGowan, the second-in-command at the DA’s office, asked Willard to put his actions and reasons on the record, the judge immediately ordered McGowan removed from court. McGowan accused the judge of “cowardice” as bailiffs escorted him out.
“Go get me some more deputies,” Willard said, according to a court transcript. “I’m asking you to leave once again out of the disrespect that you’re performing in terms of dealing with this court. Deputy, the first assistant DA needs to leave. He’s being disruptive, disrespectful and improper.”…….
Outside court, a frustrated assistant district attorney Andre Gaudin compared the effects of Willard’s conduct to the impact of Hecker’s abuse in the 1960s and 70s, which Hecker admitted during an August 2023 interview with WWL Louisiana and the Guardian.
Hecker, “with his position of authority and esteem and respect, was able to victimize them,” Gaudin said. “And now we have another person with authority who has, through their decision on the morning of trial to make a recusal, caused a massive delay. And that is exceptionally frustrating for everyone involved.”
Aaron Hebert is one of Hecker’s alleged victims. He, too, said he was frustrated with Willard.
“He should have recused himself a month or so ago when all this came up about holding [McGowan] in contempt,” Hebert said. “This is just another method, a way of putting everything off … Victims and survivors are, once again, hurt again.”
The DA’s office had 11 witnesses ready to testify, including several who say Hecker molested them, as well as the alleged victim in the case before Willard, who traveled from out of state to give testimony on how Hecker suffocated him to the point of unconsciousness and raped him in a church in 1975, when he was in high school.
“And [the DA’s office] had to go through the sordid details of these abuses at the hand of this pedophile priest with all of these victims, to prepare them for the trial,” Goyeneche said. “Everyone walked into court expecting that this is the day of justice, only to find out that the judge, without any advance warning, decided to transfer the case.”………
Outcry as New Orleans judge further delays retired priest’s rape case
Calls rise for Benedict Willard to be punished after recusing himself from Lawrence Hecker case on morning of trial
Boy_of_wonder75
Here.
Online
God bless The Guardian. They're really doing great work in a way our local media isn't.
Create an account or login to comment
You must be a member in order to leave a comment
Create account
Create an account on our community. It's easy!
Log in
Already have an account? Log in here.