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Check out this thread (stickied at the top of the main SSF page):
http://74.52.109.100/forums/showthread.php?t=50
Answers to both of your questions are in there.
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- Thread starterLSSpam
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Check out this thread (stickied at the top of the main SSF page):
http://74.52.109.100/forums/showthread.php?t=50
Answers to both of your questions are in there.
johnnyd
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It's posts like these that make me look like I know something about the game when jawing with my buddies having a few beers at the bar. Hope you don't mind a bit of plagerism while I am having a few.
Shawn
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Your completely out of your mind. Did Brees drop key 3rd down conversions against the Panthers, in one of our two losses? Who orchestrated the numerous time consuming drives that ended games and resulted in victory?
Worst post ever in the history of the internet.
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Defensive Line – A
Great. The real strength of the defense and the difference in the play of Will Smith, Charles Grant, and Brian Young has been partially schematic, but mostly with the presence of Hollis Thomas.
Linebackers – C+
They’ve been “solid”. They aren’t liabilities but only Fujita is someone who makes “positive” plays in the form of sacks or interceptions. The rest play within the framework of the defense adequately, never seem to be the problem, but don’t give much production beyond that.
I’ve combined the discussion of both of these positions because their play is really interlocked. I kind of wanted to talk about the scheme the front 7 is using which, as I’ve alluded too, has played to our strength (the D-line) and made only modest demands of our weakness (the LB’s) hiding one of our defensive deficiencies.
The Saints run a one-gap defense with their defensive line.
To explain – Between each offensive lineman is a “gap”. Simply put, in a 2-gap defense the player is responsible for “two-gaps”. Typically such a player would be a wide body (ala Grady Jackson, Haloti Ngata, etc) whose job is to hold his position. Teams such as the Ravens often employ this with their Defensive Tackles because it allows their Linebackers to run free. The DT’s take up space and occupy offensive linemen while Ray Lewis runs around without a body on him.
The Saints ask their d-line to take only one-gap, i.e. hit a single gap between linemen (using stunts, twists, etc to do so) and penetrate up field. The result and hope is the defensive line will disrupt whatever play there was in the backfield.
The draw back is it opens up lanes for a RB (or mobile QB) to run through up field. The responsibility of the Linebackers then, rather then to flow directly to the ball and try to make the play themselves by hitting gaps themselves, is to fill the lanes created by the defensive line and defend the line of scrimmage (multiple gap scheme).
The reason why this has worked so well to the Saints advantage is that it relies on the talents of the d-line above all else. Fast linemen (like Brian Young and our Ends) excel in getting up field, but have trouble working against multiple linemen. Asking them to get into the backfield as quickly as possible plays to their talents. By the same token the Linebackers are not asked to make plays so much as many other schemes (such as the Ravens or the Bears). Rather they are asked to be smart, disciplined, to play their own gaps and read where the plays are going.
To give you some idea of how our defense would ideally look, you have to look to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers under Dungy. The Tampa-2 scheme invented by Monte Kiffin relies heavily on one-gap defensive linemen (such as Warren Sapp). The Linebackers needed to back up such a scheme therefore need to be fast, good diagnosticians, but don’t so much need the bulk or strength of a linebacker like Adalius Thomas. Derrick Brooks is pretty much the ideal here.
Great. The real strength of the defense and the difference in the play of Will Smith, Charles Grant, and Brian Young has been partially schematic, but mostly with the presence of Hollis Thomas.
Linebackers – C+
They’ve been “solid”. They aren’t liabilities but only Fujita is someone who makes “positive” plays in the form of sacks or interceptions. The rest play within the framework of the defense adequately, never seem to be the problem, but don’t give much production beyond that.
I’ve combined the discussion of both of these positions because their play is really interlocked. I kind of wanted to talk about the scheme the front 7 is using which, as I’ve alluded too, has played to our strength (the D-line) and made only modest demands of our weakness (the LB’s) hiding one of our defensive deficiencies.
The Saints run a one-gap defense with their defensive line.
To explain – Between each offensive lineman is a “gap”. Simply put, in a 2-gap defense the player is responsible for “two-gaps”. Typically such a player would be a wide body (ala Grady Jackson, Haloti Ngata, etc) whose job is to hold his position. Teams such as the Ravens often employ this with their Defensive Tackles because it allows their Linebackers to run free. The DT’s take up space and occupy offensive linemen while Ray Lewis runs around without a body on him.
The Saints ask their d-line to take only one-gap, i.e. hit a single gap between linemen (using stunts, twists, etc to do so) and penetrate up field. The result and hope is the defensive line will disrupt whatever play there was in the backfield.
The draw back is it opens up lanes for a RB (or mobile QB) to run through up field. The responsibility of the Linebackers then, rather then to flow directly to the ball and try to make the play themselves by hitting gaps themselves, is to fill the lanes created by the defensive line and defend the line of scrimmage (multiple gap scheme).
The reason why this has worked so well to the Saints advantage is that it relies on the talents of the d-line above all else. Fast linemen (like Brian Young and our Ends) excel in getting up field, but have trouble working against multiple linemen. Asking them to get into the backfield as quickly as possible plays to their talents. By the same token the Linebackers are not asked to make plays so much as many other schemes (such as the Ravens or the Bears). Rather they are asked to be smart, disciplined, to play their own gaps and read where the plays are going.
To give you some idea of how our defense would ideally look, you have to look to the Tampa Bay Buccaneers under Dungy. The Tampa-2 scheme invented by Monte Kiffin relies heavily on one-gap defensive linemen (such as Warren Sapp). The Linebackers needed to back up such a scheme therefore need to be fast, good diagnosticians, but don’t so much need the bulk or strength of a linebacker like Adalius Thomas. Derrick Brooks is pretty much the ideal here.
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LSSpam
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Cornerbacks – C
Not as bad as some people claim considering the heavy responsibilities these guys sometimes draw. But little more then adequate since the Atlanta game.
Safeties – B-
Great play from the safeties, particularly before Roman Harper got hurt. But even Stoutmire has been surprisingly (to me) solid in his place. However, they’ve had opportunities to make plays and haven’t made them (Bullocks has dropped what, 3 INT’s this season?).
There are pretty much 2 schools of thought these days in the NFL when it comes to coverages. You either run the Cover-2 or you run a Cover-1/Cover-3.
Some quick explanation – Simply put, “Cover-#” refers to the number of deep zones over the top. A Cover-2, which is what Haslett commonly ran, involves 2 Safeties playing deep zone. Since both safeties have relatively the same responsibility, they are virtually interchangeable. Hence Dwight Smith playing alongside Josh Bullocks even though both are really FS’. Cover-1/Cover-3 typically involves only 1 safety deep (the FS) and the CB’s playing either man-to-man or running deep zones themselves (to make it 1 or 3 deep zones).
The benefit of a Cover-2 is obviously it’s hard to beat you deep. The benefit of a Cover-1 scheme is that it frees up your SS to play inside the box.
Because the Saints run a multiple gap scheme with their LB’s, who are basically tasked with sort of cleaning up the trash from anything the D-line misses that comes across the line of scrimmage, the LB’s often need help. This is why Payton seemed so inordinately focused with getting a proto-typical SS. Dwight Smith wasn’t going to cut it in run defense.
And since you have the SS playing in the box, it also gives you additional blitz options, just like a 3-4 defense. The result has been a substantially more aggressive defense then we’ve seen since…well the Dome Patrol days really (this defense, however, doesn’t have anywhere near the relative talent, which is understandable).
But while this defense has really played to our strengths (at S and the D-line) and compensated for a weakness (the LB’s), it’s unfortunately exposed a somewhat mediocre area of our defense, the CB. It’s important for me to stress, our CBs haven’t necessarily played poorly except for, arguably, the Baltimore game (and maybe the Green Bay game). But they are not the “ideal” for this defense because of the pressure put on them. Specifically, being lined up man-to-man for large parts of the game. Against Atlanta it worked extremely well as they had their best game this season. But the Atlanta Wide Receivers aren’t particularly good and Vick isn’t particularly accurate. Against Philly they were somewhat exposed, but Philly is a very good team with a very good QB and for the first half of the game, the CBs played pretty good.
It was against Baltimore they showed weakness. We put Baltimore in a number of 3rd and long situations in the first half and just could not end drives, largely because of completed passes.
The fear is in manys mind (including mine) our CBs are a bit of smoke and mirrors at this point and if a team with excellent Wide Receivers really challenges our CBs, we may be in trouble.
Not as bad as some people claim considering the heavy responsibilities these guys sometimes draw. But little more then adequate since the Atlanta game.
Safeties – B-
Great play from the safeties, particularly before Roman Harper got hurt. But even Stoutmire has been surprisingly (to me) solid in his place. However, they’ve had opportunities to make plays and haven’t made them (Bullocks has dropped what, 3 INT’s this season?).
There are pretty much 2 schools of thought these days in the NFL when it comes to coverages. You either run the Cover-2 or you run a Cover-1/Cover-3.
Some quick explanation – Simply put, “Cover-#” refers to the number of deep zones over the top. A Cover-2, which is what Haslett commonly ran, involves 2 Safeties playing deep zone. Since both safeties have relatively the same responsibility, they are virtually interchangeable. Hence Dwight Smith playing alongside Josh Bullocks even though both are really FS’. Cover-1/Cover-3 typically involves only 1 safety deep (the FS) and the CB’s playing either man-to-man or running deep zones themselves (to make it 1 or 3 deep zones).
The benefit of a Cover-2 is obviously it’s hard to beat you deep. The benefit of a Cover-1 scheme is that it frees up your SS to play inside the box.
Because the Saints run a multiple gap scheme with their LB’s, who are basically tasked with sort of cleaning up the trash from anything the D-line misses that comes across the line of scrimmage, the LB’s often need help. This is why Payton seemed so inordinately focused with getting a proto-typical SS. Dwight Smith wasn’t going to cut it in run defense.
And since you have the SS playing in the box, it also gives you additional blitz options, just like a 3-4 defense. The result has been a substantially more aggressive defense then we’ve seen since…well the Dome Patrol days really (this defense, however, doesn’t have anywhere near the relative talent, which is understandable).
But while this defense has really played to our strengths (at S and the D-line) and compensated for a weakness (the LB’s), it’s unfortunately exposed a somewhat mediocre area of our defense, the CB. It’s important for me to stress, our CBs haven’t necessarily played poorly except for, arguably, the Baltimore game (and maybe the Green Bay game). But they are not the “ideal” for this defense because of the pressure put on them. Specifically, being lined up man-to-man for large parts of the game. Against Atlanta it worked extremely well as they had their best game this season. But the Atlanta Wide Receivers aren’t particularly good and Vick isn’t particularly accurate. Against Philly they were somewhat exposed, but Philly is a very good team with a very good QB and for the first half of the game, the CBs played pretty good.
It was against Baltimore they showed weakness. We put Baltimore in a number of 3rd and long situations in the first half and just could not end drives, largely because of completed passes.
The fear is in manys mind (including mine) our CBs are a bit of smoke and mirrors at this point and if a team with excellent Wide Receivers really challenges our CBs, we may be in trouble.
birdog
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Excellent evaluation, LS......just 2 things I would like to add.....about Colston, I don't think ANYBODY KNEW what he was all about......according to Payton, in the TC his catching ability OPENED THE COACHES EYES FIRST!!...he never dropped a pass, and his size GUARANTEED that he will hold his own, and started to OUT-MUSCLE all his competition!.....so Stallworth became expandable!
On the argument that CW says that teams win in the playoffs with a strong running game......the Eagles rebuffed that argument, and made it to the NFC Championship game 4 times in a row with a lousy running game, where the short passing game substituted the run!
On the argument that CW says that teams win in the playoffs with a strong running game......the Eagles rebuffed that argument, and made it to the NFC Championship game 4 times in a row with a lousy running game, where the short passing game substituted the run!
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LSSpam
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Well that wasn't quite my point. No one EVER knows about late round picks. That's why they are late round picks. If you knew, you would have taken them earlier.
But there seem to be 2 real schools of thought here. Some coaches/front offices seem to feel the best philosophy with second day picks is to take highly talented players with good measurables but some red flags (like injuries, character, experience, etc) and hope you hit a home run with some.
The other school of thought, embodied by Payton apparently, is that you take highly productive football players who may not have prototype measurables or fit the "perfect mold" and hope the production, instincts, and character carries over for you.
The first school produced Onome Ojo, Talmen Gardner, Chase Lyman, etc.
The second school has, in one year, produced Zach Strief, Marques Colston, Jahri Evans, etc.
My point was that Paytons philosophy provides a higher probability of "striking gold" then Hasletts.
Atom Palmer
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It's not the worst post ever Al Gore, I'm just wondering where those brilliant drives were when he played for San Diego.
People seem to be confusing quarterback with coach here. It's Coach Payton and the coordinators who orchestrate those drives. Brees job is to execute and not give the ball away.
birdog
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I buy that!...whatever was the Payton "philosophy" it certainly worked here....but I was listening to Pat Kirwan on Sirius about the Jets missing out on Colston.....and he made the point that Colston was a HUGE SURPRISE to all of them!.....Kirwan has seen Colston play, and he never noticed much upside, and he said that many times!....of course now he is just as much baffled as everybody on missing out on Colston, after he catches the ball for the Saints......and needless to say, he's firmly on the Saints bandwagon!LOL!
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LSSpam
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Awesome to the max dawg
Nice posts, LSSpam.
My not-so-insightful comments:
Good insights on the O-line performance. And while giving all due credit to the players, implicit in your analysis is that our coaches seem to be putting the players in a position where they have the best chance of success.
I also share your concerns about our corners being exposed at some point. I think they are better than a lot of people give them credit for. (Oh yeah, you forgot to grade Turf, which had a great game on monday night and somehow allowed our corners to smother Atlanta's receivers.) Neither of them is as good as Chris McCalister, but they play hard and I believe they perform reasonably well with consistent pressure from the front four. IMO, the yearly gripe of "our corners suck" sort of assumes that good corners can compensate for a crappy pass rush, and that "shut down" corners are available in every draft. Of the 32 teams in the NFL, there is one legitimate "shut down" corner on any of them, and he plays for Denver.
In a way, our offense is really our best defense. Control the ball, sustain long drives, dominate time of possession. This has 2 obvious advantages, which is keep the opposing offense off the field and your own defense fresh. When our offense is efficient and doesn't turn the ball over, our D typically plays well enough to give us a chance to win in the fourth quarter.
Again, nice analysis. Thanks.
My not-so-insightful comments:
Good insights on the O-line performance. And while giving all due credit to the players, implicit in your analysis is that our coaches seem to be putting the players in a position where they have the best chance of success.
I also share your concerns about our corners being exposed at some point. I think they are better than a lot of people give them credit for. (Oh yeah, you forgot to grade Turf, which had a great game on monday night and somehow allowed our corners to smother Atlanta's receivers.) Neither of them is as good as Chris McCalister, but they play hard and I believe they perform reasonably well with consistent pressure from the front four. IMO, the yearly gripe of "our corners suck" sort of assumes that good corners can compensate for a crappy pass rush, and that "shut down" corners are available in every draft. Of the 32 teams in the NFL, there is one legitimate "shut down" corner on any of them, and he plays for Denver.
In a way, our offense is really our best defense. Control the ball, sustain long drives, dominate time of possession. This has 2 obvious advantages, which is keep the opposing offense off the field and your own defense fresh. When our offense is efficient and doesn't turn the ball over, our D typically plays well enough to give us a chance to win in the fourth quarter.
Again, nice analysis. Thanks.
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LSSpam
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Kicker – B+
John Carney is 14-15, including a critical 51 yarder and a clutch pressure kick at the end of the Eagles game. His leg has really held up surprisingly well. He’s somewhat mediocre at kickoffs however. Average starting field position for the opposing team is around the 30, roughly 3 yards more then the NFL average. What’s more is the starting position has increased over the past 4 games, possibly signaling fatigue in Carney’s leg.
Punter – B-
Weatherford has been surprisingly good for a rookie, but is ranking middle of the pack in terms of average distance and net distance. He’s shown a good ability to just boom punts long distances when we need to flip field position, his weakness, as one would expect, seems to be in terms of directional punting and pinning opponents inside of the 10 (he trails most of the league in that regard).
Return Game – C
Rising quickly. It was pretty bad to begin with. Kickoffs were well below average, as were Punt returns. But Reggie Bush has significantly improved his punt returns, scoring one TD as we all know, and the return of Michael Lewis is already having a significant effect in terms of kickoffs. I suspect this will be an “A” in the second half of the season.
John Carney is 14-15, including a critical 51 yarder and a clutch pressure kick at the end of the Eagles game. His leg has really held up surprisingly well. He’s somewhat mediocre at kickoffs however. Average starting field position for the opposing team is around the 30, roughly 3 yards more then the NFL average. What’s more is the starting position has increased over the past 4 games, possibly signaling fatigue in Carney’s leg.
Punter – B-
Weatherford has been surprisingly good for a rookie, but is ranking middle of the pack in terms of average distance and net distance. He’s shown a good ability to just boom punts long distances when we need to flip field position, his weakness, as one would expect, seems to be in terms of directional punting and pinning opponents inside of the 10 (he trails most of the league in that regard).
Return Game – C
Rising quickly. It was pretty bad to begin with. Kickoffs were well below average, as were Punt returns. But Reggie Bush has significantly improved his punt returns, scoring one TD as we all know, and the return of Michael Lewis is already having a significant effect in terms of kickoffs. I suspect this will be an “A” in the second half of the season.
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LSSpam
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I think our Corners are probably around the NFL average. They really aren't bad. The problem is the Cover-1 scheme Gibbs would prefer to use puts a lot of pressure on the CBs. You have to have above average corners.
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