How can you be personally against abortion, but also against making it illegal? (1 Viewer)

[UncleTrvlingJim]

What are the reasons for opposing abortion? I'm not sure how many other reasons there are other than the belief that abortion is the termination of a human life, and human life has an intrinsic value. Can someone fill in other reasons?

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to believe that abortion is killing a human, but I'm not going to force my belief on someone else, unless you also believe that you don't want to force your belief that (insert ethnic group/disabled child/whatever) is a person and should not be killed by (neo-nazi group/eugenics program/whatever)....

 

[Saint by the Bay]

What are the reasons for opposing abortion? I'm not sure how many other reasons there are other than the belief that abortion is the termination of a human life, and human life has an intrinsic value. Can someone fill in other reasons?

It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to believe that abortion is killing a human, but I'm not going to force my belief on someone else, unless you also believe that you don't want to force your belief that (insert ethnic group/disabled child/whatever) is a person and should not be killed by (neo-nazi group/eugenics program/whatever)....

Well i listed my reasoning which is another reason. I've seen people list personal responsibility as a reason. I've also seen people claim abortion was effectively wiping out a certain segment of society (the poor) and should be stopped. I think that ones ridiculous though.

In the end one can believe it's murder but believe that is a religious belief and thus shouldn't be forced on others that may not believe it's life since there isn't hard evidence either way. That is where I think Rudy approaches this from. It's different than believing certain ethnic groups etc. shouldn't be killed because they are clearly living people with the support of hard evidence.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

This thread is hilarious. I don't like Rudy and I don't support abortion but I find myself defending him and people supporting abortion just because I understand his point of view.

 

[saintmdterps]

I'm against abortion, but I feel it's a personal decision, and shouldn't be legislated. That's how I understand Rudy's view, and I agree.

I agree. I think abortion is a moral and personal issue, and is best left to the individual. I'm looking at this from the standpoint of terminating the pregnancy before the fetus is viable outside the womb. Until such point, the fetus is a part of the woman, and she may do as she pleases. I personally wish we didn't need abortions but lets face facts; for some abortion is the best alternative for a variety of reasons.

Personally I abhor the idea of our government meddling in "morality" issues such as the right to life, abortion, etc. This (congress & senate) is a group which cannot even keep it's own moral house in order and they're going to preach to US about morality? Please. I'd rather hear about abortion from Jack the Ripper or Charles Manson. At least they were crazy. What excuse does congress have?

Religion and morality are none of the government's damn business. I wish politicians would stick to lining their own pockets (something at which they excel) and leave my personal choices out of it (something at which they stink). Better yet, maybe, and here's a novel and idealistic thought, they could focus on actually trying to improve the lives of the average american citizen, since that's who they are supposed to serve in the first place. We do, after all, elect them (well, sort of) and pay their salaries. Well, sort of again. Actually, the special interest groups pay their salaries.

We have the best congress money can buy!!

 

[MickelMouse87]

This thread is hilarious. I don't like Rudy and I don't support abortion but I find myself defending him and people supporting abortion just because I understand his point of view.

It most definitely is.


Question for Republicans:

What has President Bush done to change Roe v. Wade??? Besides appoint conservative judges?

I think that abortion as a presidential election issue is pretty useless. There's not much they can do but appoint certain judges, and even that is not a guarantee when it comes time to vote. A good Supreme Court judge is one that correctly interprets the Constitution...

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Well i listed my reasoning which is another reason. I've seen people list personal responsibility as a reason. I've also seen people claim abortion was effectively wiping out a certain segment of society (the poor) and should be stopped. I think that ones ridiculous though.

In the end one can believe it's murder but believe that is a religious belief and thus shouldn't be forced on others that may not believe it's life since there isn't hard evidence either way. That is where I think Rudy approaches this from. It's different than believing certain ethnic groups etc. shouldn't be killed because they are clearly living people with the support of hard evidence.

I guess I just don't understand that line of thinking.

You say it's a barbaric act -- what's barbaric about it? If it is merely the dismemberment of tissue without any rights, then what's barbaric about it? It seems to me that it would be no more barbaric than an appendectomy.

Personal responsibility? I don't get that.... how is abortion abdicating responsibility. If the fetus is not a human, and the pregnant person does not want or can't take care of a baby, it is far more responsible to abort than to not abort.

I really don't understand the "I believe it is murder, but I don't want to force my beliefs on other people", line of reasoning. I can't believe that anyone thinks it is a good idea for individuals to determine who is a person and who isn't, who can be killed and who can't. That's anarchy.

 

[Pure Energy]

Religion and morality are none of the government's damn business.

Morality is used as a basis for writing laws.

What standard for a basis would you prefer?

 

[nolazach]

A secular one, not one biased by religion.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

I guess I just don't understand that line of thinking.

You say it's a barbaric act -- what's barbaric about it? If it is merely the dismemberment of tissue without any rights, then what's barbaric about it? It seems to me that it would be no more barbaric than an appendectomy.

Personal responsibility? I don't get that.... how is abortion abdicating responsibility. If the fetus is not a human, and the pregnant person does not want or can't take care of a baby, it is far more responsible to abort than to not abort.

I really don't understand the "I believe it is murder, but I don't want to force my beliefs on other people", line of reasoning. I can't believe that anyone thinks it is a good idea for individuals to determine who is a person and who isn't, who can be killed and who can't. That's anarchy.

Yes to me it's a barbaric act and it should be outlawed. That's the hilarity of this thread is I'm trying to basically explain the line of thinking of others.

I'm not debating the validity of other arguments just that they exist. People tend to view the abortion issues like many others very myopically but there is actually a lot of variety in the way people think on the issue.

On the issue of murder I still think your missing the key ingredient that it's murder by someones religious beliefs. This gives room for someone to say I'm not going to force that belief on others without empirical proof and there is none. It's actually a commonly held belief in my experience. The best comparison I can think of (and this isn't a good one just the best I can think of) is a vegetarian who thinks killing animals is murder but doesn't want it to be illegal because they understand that is THEIR belief not a universal truth. Yes I know, terrible comparison but I'm flailing around now trying to get people to at least understand what I'm trying to say. :hookline:

 

[Optimusaint]

Yes to me it's a barbaric act and it should be outlawed. That's the hilarity of this thread is I'm trying to basically explain the line of thinking of others.

I'm not debating the validity of other arguments just that they exist. People tend to view the abortion issues like many others very myopically but there is actually a lot of variety in the way people think on the issue.

On the issue of murder I still think your missing the key ingredient that it's murder by someones religious beliefs. This gives room for someone to say I'm not going to force that belief on others without empirical proof and there is none. It's actually a commonly held belief in my experience. The best comparison I can think of (and this isn't a good one just the best I can think of) is a vegetarian who thinks killing animals is murder but doesn't want it to be illegal because they understand that is THEIR belief not a universal truth. Yes I know, terrible comparison but I'm flailing around now trying to get people to at least understand what I'm trying to say. :hookline:

i understand. the vegetarian comparison is ok, even if its not as taboo as abortion

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

Yes to me it's a barbaric act and it should be outlawed. That's the hilarity of this thread is I'm trying to basically explain the line of thinking of others.

I'm not debating the validity of other arguments just that they exist. People tend to view the abortion issues like many others very myopically but there is actually a lot of variety in the way people think on the issue.

On the issue of murder I still think your missing the key ingredient that it's murder by someones religious beliefs. This gives room for someone to say I'm not going to force that belief on others without empirical proof and there is none. It's actually a commonly held belief in my experience. The best comparison I can think of (and this isn't a good one just the best I can think of) is a vegetarian who thinks killing animals is murder but doesn't want it to be illegal because they understand that is THEIR belief not a universal truth. Yes I know, terrible comparison but I'm flailing around now trying to get people to at least understand what I'm trying to say. :hookline:

I guess I still don't understand. I don't think murder is a religious issue -- we can debate personhood as a religious issue, but then I'm not sure how you can think it's alright for each of us to decide who is a person who isn't - who we can kill who we can't.

 

[iron error]

Yes to me it's a barbaric act and it should be outlawed. That's the hilarity of this thread is I'm trying to basically explain the line of thinking of others.

I'm not debating the validity of other arguments just that they exist. People tend to view the abortion issues like many others very myopically but there is actually a lot of variety in the way people think on the issue.

On the issue of murder I still think your missing the key ingredient that it's murder by someones religious beliefs. This gives room for someone to say I'm not going to force that belief on others without empirical proof and there is none. It's actually a commonly held belief in my experience. The best comparison I can think of (and this isn't a good one just the best I can think of) is a vegetarian who thinks killing animals is murder but doesn't want it to be illegal because they understand that is THEIR belief not a universal truth. Yes I know, terrible comparison but I'm flailing around now trying to get people to at least understand what I'm trying to say. :hookline:

your example makes perfect sense when understanding the original point of this thread.

unclejim makes sense if the baby is just considered a cyst as he sees it.

however, lets not forget that an unborn baby is alive and has the unique ability to stay alive once removed from the mom's body. We would all agree it is a "person" however you define that, once it is out of the womb and disconnected. Therefore, this is not a religious issue for the non-religous to get worked up over. This is a basic human right issue in a sense. Mom has a right to terminate pregnancy, but does that human in her have the right to be removed safely or to be killed in order to end the pregnancy. The point is to end pregnancy, right? Or is it to kill? Why is that human inside her not given human rights, rights which we all uphold whether we are religious or not? Is it because the baby is in a dependent state to another? Is that why it has no human rights? How is that any different than born human beings that are in a dependent state right now, including my 4 week old, and my 90 year old grandmother? The simple question, again, is why kill a human to end a pregnancy? Why not remove the baby safely to end the pregnancy. The baby is human, and to not give it the right to be born when it is fully able, could be considered barbaric IMO.

 

[Saint by the Bay]

I guess I still don't understand. I don't think murder is a religious issue -- we can debate personhood as a religious issue, but then I'm not sure how you can think it's alright for each of us to decide who is a person who isn't - who we can kill who we can't.

In essence though personhood is the issue in determining murder. Personhood in terms of abortion is defined through religion for many if not most. For a person to say "I accept that through my religious doctrine a fetus is a person and thus I am personally against abortion however I think everyone has the right to decide whether it is in fact a person by their belief structure" I think is a fair and valid opinion to hold. That to me is the crux of things for people like Rudy IMO.

Likewise I think it's a fair opinion to say "murder is murder regardless of religious belief and I can't suppoort the right of anyone to have an abortion".

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

In essence though personhood is the issue in determining murder. Personhood in terms of abortion is defined through religion for many if not most. For a person to say "I accept that through my religious doctrine a fetus is a person and thus I am personally against abortion however I think everyone has the right to decide whether it is in fact a person by their belief structure" I think is a fair and valid opinion to hold. That to me is the crux of things for people like Rudy IMO.

That just seems like a recipe for chaos to me -- well, according to my religious belief, a Jew isn't a person, so it's ok to kill them.

I can completely understand not being 100% certain on the personhood of a fetus, I guess I can't see coming to the conclusion that someone is a person, but also believing that it is ok for someone to kill that person b/c they don't believe that person is a person.

 

[MLU]

I hold the same view. I don't personally believe in it, but I don't feel that a doctor's options should be limited nor should a woman be told what she can and cannot do with her body. Just like I choose not to smoke weed, but I would not care if they legalized it.

In other words, it's a personal choice and everyone should have the option to choose or not choose...