Is Head Coaching a full-time job? (15 Viewers)

[Lazarus]

I brought up Pete Carroll in my earlier post and then removed it to just show active coaches. He was a top tier motivator until he began to coddle..

I just didn't pay that much attention to PC. I think hes very successful but i don't know anything about his style

 

[AARPSaint]

I like how you took @SuperSaint 's music analogy and tweaked it a bit. I think I just had a hard time thinking of players as piano parts @SuperSaint, lol. Thinking of HC as a conductor makes sense to me. With first chairs as the coordinators completes it for me.


So, yes, head coach is a full time job, plus.

It’s a very good analogy. I spent a lot of my working life with student orchestras. If your first violins suck, or you don’t have a decent oboe player, for instance, the orchestra will sound like ****. The conductor can’t play all the instruments— just as the coaches can’t play all the positions.

NFL teams generally don’t have really awful players. They are elite athletes, just as a first rate orchestra doesn’t have any awful players.

I think it was 60 Minutes who noted that the level of quality of the NFL players is so high that coaching makes a critical difference, and I tend to think that’s spot on. We may have observed the validation of that view during the last two weeks,

 

[syeager]

Obviously you have not read my posts on Campbell, he has the best tandem of OC and DC in the league. The Lions have had 19 top 100 picks over the last 5 yrs including a #2 #3 and a #7. They also have one of the, if not the best GM and scouting dept in the league. Dan didn't build the culture Brad Holmes did. Heck Dan didn't even hire Johnson he was there when he got there. And it was only when Campbell took over play calling and failed did he promote Johnson to OC .

Reid had been an OL coach a TE coach a QB/ Ast HC before the Eagles

The whole point of what I've been saying is while I like Rizzi he has NO coaching experience on offense or defense in the NFL or even a D1 school not as an OC , DC or even a position coach. While he may be a good to very good motivator that will only get you so far in the NFL
You have to have a guy that can motivate AND know his X's and O's VERY well

You may very well be right. Antonio Pierce seems to be an excellent motivator but the wheels seem to be falling off in Vegas

 

[St. Geezy]

You may very well be right. Antonio Pierce seems to be an excellent motivator but the wheels seem to be falling off in Vegas

Vegas isn’t exactly the best case study for this. That’s a disaster organization. Anyone that goes there is destined for failure.

 

[DSnfla]

Bill cowher Bill Pacells John Madden Chuck Noll

Payton and Belichik Happen to be both Both but I wouldn’t say Payton belongs in this crowd yet He gets to cute and too caught up in Xs and Os. . I’m not talking about the college rah rah boys I’m talking about leaders of men. They are pretty rare maybe 3 % of the population. You can do the math not that many in coaching. The Xs and O’s boys rely more on intelligence than leadership, they think they are better but they are not.

LOL you think Cowher, Parcells Madden and Knoll were not X's and O's guys as well as being motivators???? LOL All of them except Madden had been coordinators in the NFL before being a HC and Madden was DC at San Diego ST

 

[DSnfla]

A NFL special teams coach only knows special teams and has no knowledge of any other part of the game of football whatsoever nor how to hire the right people, and manage and motivate them in general, unless of course they coached someone's tight ends unit or their RB group for a little while that one time. These ST buffoons can't even quickly learn such things either, including how to be a position group coach which apparently is the ultimate resume-clinching qualifier for what makes a good HC candidate.

We learn something new everyday here on good ol' SR.

LOL go to the opposite extreme much???? You keep saying ST coaches but all the coaches all of you have mentioned have experience at a high level on the offensive or defensive side of the ball EXCEPT Rizzi.

How many of you would have even the best orthopedic surgeon perform open heart surgery on you??? I mean come on he or she is a Dr as well, he or she went to med school. I'm sure they worked around great heart surgeons. You feel perfectly comfortable with the Ortho doc , right??

 

[DSnfla]

John Harbaugh was just primary a special teams coach




Riz has been the head coach of 2 college programs and has been an Assistant HC at two locations. But believing that you have to be either a DC/OC/Position coach to be a good coach is a horrible view, brother. The best coaches are the ones that know how to get and keep the best people around them while developing their players. And to crap on special teams when it could be said that the greatest coach in NFL history might love special teams more than defense...haha.



Quiet as kept, Riz's resume is legit

C'mon look at your own post Harbaugh was a TE coach @ Pitt a FBS school. And a DBs coach @ Indiana a FBS school. I never said that you can't be primary a ST coach and not be a good HC , I said that I think a good HC needs experience at a high level on either the offense or defensive side of the ball, which Rizzi does not have.
Rizzi has been a HC at New Haven an Rhode Island . Yeah these are two powerhouse college programs. Really Jahsoul??? Brother you know better. And that ast HC title is just so we could hire him away or keep him from being hired away
What Belichick loves more has no bearing on this topic.
The best HCs have experience coaching successfully at a high level in the NFL or major college on offense or defense. They have to be very good @ X's and O's along with being a very good motivator

 

[DSnfla]

I brought up Pete Carroll in my earlier post and then removed it to just show active coaches. He was a top tier motivator until he began to coddle..

Let's keep Carroll in the conversation. Yes he's a great motivator but very good at X's and O's as well. and he failed as a HC before in 2 NFL jobs even before USC. The fact of the matter is there is more to being a great HC than motivation you need to be very good @ X's and O's to be a success in the NFL. But it's more likely that a HC can be successful being great at X's and O's and not so great a motivator like Shanny or Reid

 

[DSnfla]

Vegas isn’t exactly the best case study for this. That’s a disaster organization. Anyone that goes there is destined for failure.

LOL but no allowance was ever made for DA coaching at that dumpster fire of an org.

 

[jahsoul357]

C'mon look at your own post Harbaugh was a TE coach @ Pitt a FBS school. And a DBs coach @ Indiana a FBS school. I never said that you can't be primary a ST coach and not be a good HC , I said that I think a good HC needs experience at a high level on either the offense or defensive side of the ball, which Rizzi does not have.

Experience at a high level as either an OC or DC does absolutely nothing in terms of coaching. Most coaches fit your mold and quite honestly, most suck...lol. You should know the sport that you are coaching.

And you are touting Harbaugh being a TE Coach at Pitt (a job he only got because of his dad was the assistant head coach) and a DB coach for a 2-9 football team? lol.

Rizzi has been a HC at New Haven an Rhode Island . Yeah these are two powerhouse college programs. Really Jahsoul??? Brother you know better. And that ast HC title is just so we could hire him away or keep him from being hired away
What Belichick loves more has no bearing on this topic.
The best HCs have experience coaching successfully at a high level in the NFL or major college on offense or defense. They have to be very good @ X's and O's along with being a very good motivator

You keep talking about being very good X's and O's but this is not basketball where the coach draws up plays on the sideline during a timeout. A coach should understand the game of football but your viewpoint only stems from the fact that traditional hiring has been

Also, if we are being honest, it sounds like you are speaking from a place of not understanding what all goes into special teams. Blocking techniques, gap concepts, angles and attacks. Special teams is both offensive and defensive. Not to mention the fact that you are coaching players who are on both offense and defense.

The way you are thinking is why we have so many bad coaching in the NFL now.

I also found a blog on the topic from 2 years ago...interesting read and look at who is specifically called out.

Study: Coaches With a Special Teams Background Have Been Highly Successful

Study: Coaches With a Special Teams Background Have Been Highly Successful: Every year we see lists published...

www.the33rdteam.com

Let's keep Carroll in the conversation. Yes he's a great motivator but very good at X's and O's as well. and he failed as a HC before in 2 NFL jobs even before USC. The fact of the matter is there is more to being a great HC than motivation you need to be very good @ X's and O's to be a success in the NFL. But it's more likely that a HC can be successful being great at X's and O's and not so great a motivator like Shanny or Reid

Did Pete Carroll really fail? He was fired after 1 season in NY by the owner after a 6-10 season. The coach that the owner was so ready
It is also said that Pete was too nice for New England...haha.

Pete was a great defensive coordinator but Pete also because a "CEO" coach and hired good people around him.

 

[DSnfla]

Experience at a high level as either an OC or DC does absolutely nothing in terms of coaching. Most coaches fit your mold and quite honestly, most suck...lol. You should know the sport that you are coaching.

And you are touting Harbaugh being a TE Coach at Pitt (a job he only got because of his dad was the assistant head coach) and a DB coach for a 2-9 football team? lol.


You keep talking about being very good X's and O's but this is not basketball where the coach draws up plays on the sideline during a timeout. A coach should understand the game of football but your viewpoint only stems from the fact that traditional hiring has been

Also, if we are being honest, it sounds like you are speaking from a place of not understanding what all goes into special teams. Blocking techniques, gap concepts, angles and attacks. Special teams is both offensive and defensive. Not to mention the fact that you are coaching players who are on both offense and defense.

The way you are thinking is why we have so many bad coaching in the NFL now.

I also found a blog on the topic from 2 years ago...interesting read and look at who is specifically called out.

Study: Coaches With a Special Teams Background Have Been Highly Successful

Study: Coaches With a Special Teams Background Have Been Highly Successful: Every year we see lists published...

www.the33rdteam.com

Did Pete Carroll really fail? He was fired after 1 season in NY by the owner after a 6-10 season. The coach that the owner was so ready
It is also said that Pete was too nice for New England...haha.

Pete was a great defensive coordinator but Pete also because a "CEO" coach and hired good people around him.

But Harbaugh still got experience coaching positions at a major college level does not make a difference how he got it and of course it's the DB coach that is responsible for the team's W/L record LOL
I am very familiar with ST coaching I have helped out with ST coaching on a HS level, yeah it not a high level but I do know a bit about it. There are some basic principles that carry over but it's just not the same as offensive and defensive schemes

Yes Pete did fail , you lose te last 5 games of the yr like he did in NY that's failure. Whether he was too nice or not he had 1 good yr in NE

I think we have many failed HC in the NFL because the pressure to win big in less than 3 yrs with a bottom team is a big reason. If you don't produce a playoff team in 2 yrs after a 3-14 season you're on the hot seat AND that's hiring an OC or DC that has 1 good yr under their belt. Canalas is going to be a good example just watch.

All this pertains to Rizi as a HC. I'm not saying he can't be a good HC , I'm saying that history is not on his side. I love the guy, he's fiery and passionate. but does he have the knowledge and experience in ALL phases of the game? His experience in coaching offense and defense has only been at just slightly above the HS level. We don't have any reference to go by with him other than ST at close to the NFL level.

We don't know his talent evaluation skills. Also ML NEEDS a strong HC that can be a great talent evaluator because he's not a football guy. While Payton may have not always been great he was very good . He had some of the best drafts in 15-16 yrs in the NFL

Also for Rizzi to be a very successful he will need 2 great coordinators because how can we trust be could be even a good OC or DC?
Let's say he keeps KK which I think is probably the biggest reason to possibly make him HC. He's still gonna need a great DC , I'm not convinced Woods is that. Let's say we are blessed and the stars align and we turn it around next yr and make the playoffs and win one. There's a good chance some owner is gonna pluck KK or the DC to be their HC, it would be too early but that's what owners do. Then we have to find another great coordinator. Do we know that Rizzi can do that? With guy that has been a very good coordinator on either side of the ball, we know that part is secure.

The only thing we know for sure about Rizzi is he's a very good motivator and our ST will be very good while he's here in any capacity

 

[St. Geezy]

C'mon look at your own post Harbaugh was a TE coach @ Pitt a FBS school. And a DBs coach @ Indiana a FBS school. I never said that you can't be primary a ST coach and not be a good HC , I said that I think a good HC needs experience at a high level on either the offense or defensive side of the ball, which Rizzi does not have.
Rizzi has been a HC at New Haven an Rhode Island . Yeah these are two powerhouse college programs. Really Jahsoul??? Brother you know better. And that ast HC title is just so we could hire him away or keep him from being hired away
What Belichick loves more has no bearing on this topic.
The best HCs have experience coaching successfully at a high level in the NFL or major college on offense or defense. They have to be very good @ X's and O's along with being a very good motivator

This is why there is an interviewing process, isn’t there? To see what all the guy has learned over his years and what he can bring to the table with all these aspects you bring up. If the interview is bad, you move on.

But to dismiss a guy because he doesn’t have a year under his belt at Indiana friggin’ University as a DB coach 25 years ago or a year at Pittsburgh as a tight ends coach almost 40 years ago is silly. As if that is some extremely difficult job for a good ball coach with decades of college and NFL experience to pick up and manage.

You sound like someone that has come up with a very loose idea concept and now feel forced to defend it at all costs for the sake of defending it. Closed-minded. You also sound like a guy that can’t wait to root against Rizzi because you have to prove all those internet imbeciles that don’t know ball that you are right.

You know how many guys with the background details you brought up fail at this level? Most of them. Heck, relatively speaking, virtually all of them eventually do.

Perhaps after the interview process, it gets determined that we SHOULD do something out of the box like this. There are many ways to get things done in this league, some of them outside the box…but I honestly don’t necessarily think this is as far outside the box as you make it out to be.

For a guy that is constantly telling people they need to look beyond the surface and not just at the black and white, low hanging fruit, you sure seem to be doing the exact opposite here.

 

[St. Geezy]

But Harbaugh still got experience coaching positions at a major college level does not make a difference how he got it and of course it's the DB coach that is responsible for the team's W/L record LOL

I am very familiar with ST coaching I have helped out with ST coaching on a HS level, yeah it not a high level but I do know a bit about it. There are some basic principles that carry over but it's just not the same as offensive and defensive schemes

Yes Pete did fail , you lose te last 5 games of the yr like he did in NY that's failure. Whether he was too nice or not he had 1 good yr in NE

I think we have many failed HC in the NFL because the pressure to win big in less than 3 yrs with a bottom team is a big reason. If you don't produce a playoff team in 2 yrs after a 3-14 season you're on the hot seat AND that's hiring an OC or DC that has 1 good yr under their belt. Canalas is going to be a good example just watch.

All this pertains to Rizi as a HC. I'm not saying he can't be a good HC , I'm saying that history is not on his side. I love the guy, he's fiery and passionate. but does he have the knowledge and experience in ALL phases of the game? His experience in coaching offense and defense has only been at just slightly above the HS level. We don't have any reference to go by with him other than ST at close to the NFL level.

We don't know his talent evaluation skills. Also ML NEEDS a strong HC that can be a great talent evaluator because he's not a football guy. While Payton may have not always been great he was very good . He had some of the best drafts in 15-16 yrs in the NFL

Also for Rizzi to be a very successful he will need 2 great coordinators because how can we trust be could be even a good OC or DC?
Let's say he keeps KK which I think is probably the biggest reason to possibly make him HC. He's still gonna need a great DC , I'm not convinced Woods is that. Let's say we are blessed and the stars align and we turn it around next yr and make the playoffs and win one. There's a good chance some owner is gonna pluck KK or the DC to be their HC, it would be too early but that's what owners do. Then we have to find another great coordinator. Do we know that Rizzi can do that? With guy that has been a very good coordinator on either side of the ball, we know that part is secure.

The only thing we know for sure about Rizzi is he's a very good motivator and our ST will be very good while he's here in any capacity

Being a collegiate position coach isn’t some super difficult thing to pick up if you’re a really good ball coach, especially one at the NFL level.

You keep citing Harbaugh’s top level college position coach experience but that basically boils down to a single year at Indiana almost 30 years ago and a single year at Pittsburgh almost 40 years ago.

How on Earth does that have any bearing on whether or not a guy can be a NFL HC or not?

There is a reason those are just two quick blips on his resume. Hell, a lot of guys have blips on their coaching resumes like that, a random college position coach job here and there at positions they had not worked at before. You know why? Because it’s something a good, top notch coach either has knowledge of from being around football their whole lives and/or they can pick up quickly over the course of a single off-season; heck, they can learn the nuance of the new position they need to coach in a few weeks actually if they need to. It happens all the time.

I’m not saying being a position coach at mid-programs like that are “easy” jobs, but in the context of this discussion, talking about good coaches coaching at the NFL level, those are in fact, easy jobs to pick up and do and should have little to no bearing on whether or not you could be a HC, especially if that VERY BRIEF experience was literally decades ago.

Harbaugh is a BALL COACH. Rizzi is a BALL COACH.

If you interview Rizzi and determine he is some complete imbecile that can’t pick up offensive/defensive football nuance (extremely doubtful) or can’t manage people/coaches/the locker room (also extremely doubtful), you don’t hire him. Plain and simple.

But you don’t NOT hire him just because he didn’t coach a TE group that one time at a mid college football program 40 years ago and instead “only” held position coach, defensive coordinator, and head coaching jobs at college programs that aren’t on your own personal approval list.

Seriously…how is a person with this resume so egregiously unqualified for a NFL head coaching job??? I feel like I’m in the Twilight Zone here.