My last attempt (2 Viewers)

[Brennan77]

Or it is just a way to feel okay about committing sin.

/channeling Bobby Hebert Yeah...no. Part of the make up of the sacrament is actual penitence and intention to not sin again. This is why you verbally make an act of contrition that contains those two elements before the priest offers you absolution. It's otherwise not valid.

 

[DaveXA]

Yes, exactly.

And once you're removed from an absolutist view of reading all of the Bible literally, then you're in the realm of imperfect human interpretation. Thus rendering ANY interpretation, no matter how studied or in depth, potentially (or even likely) fallible.

While our interpretations may be fallible, that has no impact as to Scripture's infallibility, or lack thereof. Because we are fallible, doesn't mean we need to throw our hands up and say screw it all.

I think it's a worthwhile endeavor to learn all we can from Scripture. Some might not agree, and that's fine. Just a thought anyway.

 

[saintmdterps]

Or it is just a way to feel okay about committing sin.

At any rate it is not the sin per se that gets us into trouble, it's our afinity for the sin; we LIKE to (insert your favorite vice here) and it's this attachment and desire for that particular sin that leads us down the slippery slope

 

[St. Geezy]

/channeling Bobby Hebert Yeah...no. Part of the make up of the sacrament is actual penitence and intention to not sin again. This is why you verbally make an act of contrition that contains those two elements before the priest offers you absolution. It's otherwise not valid.

LMAO @ "yeah, no"

What you just stated is the intent, but not everyone goes in with that same mindset.

 

[Heathen Saint]

Yes, exactly.

And once you're removed from an absolutist view of reading all of the Bible literally, then you're in the realm of imperfect human interpretation. Thus rendering ANY interpretation, no matter how studied or in depth, potentially (or even likely) fallible.

Exactly. Which is where the subjective, ‘I view it this way which is the best way I’ve found, therefore I’m able to make conjectures on what a god intends’ comes into play. People do it. One may disagree, but the Bible itself is a book filled with so called enlightenments from humans subject to their own emotions. How then is the Bible not looked at through a more skeptical lens?

I can’t for the life of me understand how some can confidently assert that scripture is not chock full of contradictions, or that those recognizing that fact simply don’t have the biblical knowledge necessary to comprehend it. That’s both haughty and irrational. And we come full circle to where a certain bit of confounding evidence against a god’s morality, etc comes into question and in comes the ‘you must read/you don’t understand the context’ nearly as consistently as death and taxes. It seems a narrative of ‘defend by any means necessary’ comes into play, even subconsciously, at some point by those who participate in this method of argument.

 

[Heathen Saint]

/channeling Bobby Hebert Yeah...no. Part of the make up of the sacrament is actual penitence and intention to not sin again. This is why you verbally make an act of contrition that contains those two elements before the priest offers you absolution. It's otherwise not valid.

You can argue that it isn’t the purpose of confession, but not that it isn’t a likely byproduct.

 

[Brennan77]

LMAO @ "yeah, no"

What you just stated is the intent, but not everyone goes in with that same mindset.

That's correct. And those confessions are not valid.

 

[Brennan77]

You can argue that it isn’t the purpose of confession, but not that it isn’t a likely byproduct.

I don't have to argue for it. The required 'matter' or elements of the sacrament are clearly defined. It simply is what it is. Forgiveness requires actual penitence by nature, otherwise you cannot receive it. It's not a game where you say some empty words and you're all fixed up. Certain intentions are required.

Now of course people try all sorts of cheap tricks. But that doesn't affect the sacrament of reconciliation in itself and I don't see how that's a byproduct of God offering love and forgiveness.

 

[SystemShock]

Don't have a lot of time today, but a quick comment regarding Scripture genre and how to read. It's really not an either/or proposition as to reading the Bible a certain way. There are elements of history, literal and figurative sections of Scripture. I understand the objections, but if the authors intended them to be literal, we should read as such, if they intended to be figurative, then we read accordingly.

Of course, we wouldn't always know at first blush what it's intended to be, and that's where in depth study can be helpful. Just throwing in my 2 cents.

Would you agree that the writings in the Bible were meant to proselytize to the masses of those times?

 

[HoustonSaint68]

While our interpretations may be fallible, that has no impact as to Scripture's infallibility, or lack thereof. Because we are fallible, doesn't mean we need to throw our hands up and say screw it all.

I think it's a worthwhile endeavor to learn all we can from Scripture. Some might not agree, and that's fine. Just a thought anyway.

Oh, yeah, I (mostly) agree -- that is, with not needing to throw up our hands and say screw it all, and with endeavoring to learn all we can from a text that is chock full of wisdom.

As for divine infallibility though, my dated, slightly-more-than-novice view is that there are multiple places of direct contradiction in the Bible, and the scholarly explanations I've heard to reconcile them always sounded a bit like a verbal shell game to me. If one accepts those contradictions as being real, then accepting infallibility is not a logical conclusion.

Again, I recognize there are scholarly arguments for reconciliation -- particularly from an allegorical POV -- but then we're back to arguments created through the prism of inherently fallible individual consciousness. Thus, if divine, true contradiction isn't possible. If non-divine interpretation is needed, fallibility is possible/likely. Happy to consider whether this logic is flawed.

Which is where the subjective, ‘I view it this way which is the best way I’ve found, therefore I’m able to make conjectures on what a god intends’ comes into play. People do it...

I can’t for the life of me understand how some can confidently assert that scripture is not chock full of contradictions, or that those recognizing that fact simply don’t have the biblical knowledge necessary to comprehend it.

Yup. My own calculation is that a truly loving, sentient God would make His divine text (and resulting eternal salvation) readily accessible to the large majority of His creation without the need for intermediaries to explain it -- particularly given His intimate knowledge of His own creation's ready fallibility in abusing intermediary authority.

Otherwise, isn't He just running a glorified Pledge Week, where most of us either end up on the sofa with Mohammed, Jugdish, Sidney and Clayton or, if you're one of the lucky ones, you end up bent over, holding your ankles saying, "Thank you sir, may I have another?"???

 

[insidejob]

@Brennan77 I have a question for you specifically regarding Saint Anne. I figured you'd be someone to ask since you know your stuff. I have a prayer card I've carried around in my wallet for a while now, and the Wikipedia research I've gotten on her says:

According to apocryphal Christian and Islamic tradition, Saint Anne was the mother of Mary and grandmother of Jesus. Mary's mother is not named in the canonical gospels nor in the Qur'an. In writing, Anne's name and that of her husband Joachim come only from New Testament apocrypha, of which the Gospel of James seems to be the earliest that mentions them.

Do you know why she isn't more revered in the church being that she's the grandmother of Christ? If you don't know, that's fine. I don't want you wasting any time looking into it or anything. I asked members of my family and they didn't really know either.

 

[TheMike62987]

Dogs believe "the human feeds me every day... the human must be a god."

Dogs don't see us as gods, they view their humans as part of a pack. There is a specific leader in every pack, in my family's case it is me. I feed her, I let her outside, I bathe her. I am her leader. You're trying to attach a human idea into the very simple mind of a dog.

 

[TheMike62987]

What an empty existence.

What if we lead a full, meaningful life by trying to have a meaningful existence? a god isn't necessary for that to happen.

 

[Cage1]

Well, after 20 pages, I have to say, I'm convinced, OP. So what now?

 

[Brennan77]

@Brennan77 I have a question for you specifically regarding Saint Anne. I figured you'd be someone to ask since you know your stuff. I have a prayer card I've carried around in my wallet for a while now, and the Wikipedia research I've gotten on her says:



Do you know why she isn't more revered in the church being that she's the grandmother of Christ? If you don't know, that's fine. I don't want you wasting any time looking into it or anything. I asked members of my family and they didn't really know either.

St Anne does have a certain appreciation as a saint. But the main answer to your question is that she isn't theologically significant in the same way as Mary. We speak of Mary because she reveals Christ.

Mary is the archetype for the Church and even creation itself. Her body and her will are the vessel through which Truth and Life enter earthly reality. She is the condition by which Christ is incarnate in the world and made present to all of humanity. She is the most honorable among all created beings. Everything beautiful said of her simply magnifies her Son.

Early in the Church's history she was referred to as theotokos, or mother of God. The purpose is not to honor her specifically, but to affirm the divine and human natures of Jesus. To fail to recognize her this way is to fail to recognize Christ. Furthermore, Jesus offered her to his disciples as a mother and all generations have and will call her blessed. She is unique among creation.