My last attempt (2 Viewers)

[Taurus]

Well the problem is he's not really searching, but just sitting back and saying "prove it" which seems lazy in my opinion. Blind faith to me is a dead end. Doubt is actually a part of true Faith. Mystical Christianity references The Dark Night of the Soul, which can be years of crushing despair from which one only emerges by faith and perseverance. Doubt is also one of the Three pillars of Zen; the other two being...Faith and perseverance. I'm in the doubt/wonder/worry phase

Everyone is born an atheist. If you want me to believe in a deity it is up to you to provide evidence that it's even there to begin with.

Nothing says I have to do any "searching" at all. I don't recall any "action items" coming with my first set of diapers. I can live a happy, productive life without ever entertaining the existence of the supernatural. So why should I?

It's up to you (the metaphorical you) to provide these answers or...and this may sound radical...shut up about it.

 

[Goatman Saint]

I pity anyone who goes through life thinking this is all it's really about. What an empty existence.

There’s the difference between me, who has never said he pities anyone for those beliefs and quite a few of the religious people I meet. I don’t have a problem with your beliefs. If that’s what you choose to believe, and that’s what you need to make it through your day then good for you. I simply do not share those beliefs. I don’t think my dad is in heaven enjoying the angels singing hanging out with his family. I simply don’t. I cherish my time on earth. The people I know, the experiences I have, the things that I do for people the birds in the trees. There’s such a beauty in life. I don’t know where following a faith or not has anything to do with that.

 

[insidejob]

Everyone is born an atheist. If you want me to believe in a deity it is up to you to provide evidence that it's even there to begin with.

Nothing says I have to do any "searching" at all. I don't recall any "action items" coming with my first set of diapers. I can live a happy, productive life without ever entertaining the existence of the supernatural. So why should I?

It's up to you (the metaphorical you) to provide these answers or...and this may sound radical...shut up about it.

That's what sold me on Theravadan Buddhism. Granted, I was searching and found that it was the closest thing as far as religion goes that I was looking for. The goal being freedom from suffering in this lifetime - the question or idea of "God" isn't even bothered with. And it came with some pretty simple instructions, or action items as you put it, similar to Christianity's ten commandments.

It all boils down to the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path:

The four noble truths and eightfold path are key concepts in Buddhism. The four noble truths are key beliefs or realisations about the world and how to escape the endless cycle of birth, death and rebirth (samsara).


1. The Truth of Suffering (Dukkha)
The Buddha realised that this world if full of suffering (dukkha). All existence including birth, old age, sickness and death is suffering and sorrow is dukkha. This is called the Truth of Suffering.


2. The Truth of the Cause of Suffering (Samudhaya)
The cause of human suffering lies in ignorance. Ignorance and its resulting Karma have often been referred to in Buddhism as “desire” or craving (tanha). The Buddha declared:
“Verily it is this thirst or craving, causing the renewal of existence, accompanied by sensual delight, seeking satisfaction now here, now there – the craving for gratification of the passions, for continual existence in the worlds of sense.”


Buddha says that the root of the cause of suffering is found in the mind itself. In particular our tendency to grasp at things (or alternatively to push them away) places us fundamentally at odds with the way life really is. For example, we suffer when we lose something because our mind formed an attachment to it.


3. The Truth of the Cessation of Suffering (Nirodha)
The extinguishing of all human ignorance results in a state known as Nirvana. This is the Truth of the Cessation of Suffering. Reaching Nirvana is not a place or ‘heaven’ but more like a state of peacefulness. Imagine there is a flame representing the ignorance of the world. The extinguishing of that flame is Nirvana.


4. The Truth of the Path to the Cessation of Suffering (Magga)
The Truth of the Path to the Cessation of Suffering is the Noble Eight-fold Path. How do we reach Nirvana as Buddhists? We follow it in everyday life.

Buddhists will practice the eightfold path on a daily basis and live it in every means possible. By following this teaching, one can follow in the footsteps of the Buddha himself.


1. Right View or Right Understanding – Seeing things how they really are, not how you think they are. For example, keeping yourself free from prejudice.
2. Right Thoughts – Having kind thoughts, for example, not being greedy. In other words, to turn away from the evils of this world and direct your mind towards righteousness and positive thought.
3. Right Speech – To refrain from harmful speech and to speak kindly to everyone. Avoid lies, gossip and hurtful words.
4. Right Conduct – To make sure that your deeds are peaceful, benevolent (good) and compassionate. To live the Teaching of the Buddha daily. This includes, saving life (not destroying it), not stealing, being respectful to others.
5. Right Livelihood – To earn your living in such a way as to entail no evil consequences. Examples of right livelihood may include making a living as a teacher or doctor – jobs that do not involve hurting people or animals.
6. Right Effort – To work hard and put effort into understanding the way of the world. We should direct our efforts to the overcoming of ignorance and selfish desires.
7. Right Mindfulness – To cherish good and pure thoughts for all that we say and do arise from our thoughts. We should be aware of our actions, words and thoughts at all times.
8. Right Meditation or Right Contemplation – To meditate and concentrate your mind on the Buddha, his Life and his Teaching. Many Buddhists will meditate at a Buddhist temple, but meditation can take place at home or in any other quiet place.

This was an easy thing to grasp at the time and everything I've learned about it from practicing comes back to this. The question of samsara and reincarnation and ultimately achieving Nirvana makes much more sense to me than being able to live an utterly awful, hateful, hurtful and miserable life and asking for forgiveness and accepting Christ on my deathbed getting me into heaven. That's just me though. My whole family is Catholic and that's cool with me. To each their own. We're all just passing through anyway no matter what your faith or lack thereof is.

 

[saintmdterps]

I pity anyone who goes through life thinking this is all it's really about. What an empty existence.

And yet finding your peace right here and now is the essence of Buddhism. Buddhism is not atheistic but rather non-theistic. The Buddha neither confirmed nor denied the existence of a God, but said "All created things must decay. Work out your own Salvation with diligence". The Buddha believed that salvation could be found in the here and now by apprehending the moment as it is. We remember the past incorrectly and we anticipate the future incorrectly, so the only chance we have to get it right is in the here and now.

When pressed by one of his followers for the answer to the question "What happens when I die", the Buddha responded cryptically "What happens to your lap when you stand up? What happens to your fist when you open your hand?

Enlightenment, or Nirvana (which means "going out") is to be found in the elimination of Karma and the accompanying craving/aversion that bedevils us all. The extinction or "going out" of Enlightenment is the extinction of the very damaging notion that we are all separate discreet entities. Instead, Enlightenment focuses on finding unity with reality as it is, and not as we wish it to be, as this world is indeed a temporary illusion.

 

[saintmdterps]

That's what sold me on Theravadan Buddhism. Granted, I was searching and found that it was the closest thing as far as religion goes that I was looking for. The goal being freedom from suffering in this lifetime - the question or idea of "God" isn't even bothered with. And it came with some pretty simple instructions, or action items as you put it, similar to Christianity's ten commandments.

It all boils down to the Four Noble Truths and the Eightfold Path:



This was an easy thing to grasp at the time and everything I've learned about it from practicing comes back to this. The question of samsara and reincarnation and ultimately achieving Nirvana makes much more sense to me than being able to live an utterly awful, hateful, hurtful and miserable life and asking for forgiveness and accepting Christ on my deathbed getting me into heaven. That's just me though. My whole family is Catholic and hat's cool with me. To each their own. We're all just passing through anyway no matter what your faith or lack thereof is.

Yup. I think we've had this discussion before

 

[SystemShock]

No, it just means I'm not gonna play your silly game.

If you ever wish to inquire in a serious manner (clearly you're not, based on recent posts and others I've seen from you), we can have a discussion. Hopefully your life gets better, regardless of your beliefs.

I am not trying to play silly games.

You made the following statement:

I'd actually be very interested in seeing a non-believer in a "project" (I'm gonna use that for lack of a better term) where for 1 year........they immersed themselves into principles of Christianity......learned more about how Scriptures pertained to their everyday lives, etc. With the end-game test being: at the end of that 1 year period, can they really say their life is no better than it was when they started? Worst case scenario, I would imagine they couldn't truthfully say that........best case scenario....they may find themselves seriously starting to believe.

So, I am asking you, what are these principles of Christianity you speak of that will lead to no other conclusion that my life will be better? Principles which, by the very parameters you set forth, have to be unique to Christianity.

 

[Brennan77]

Enlightenment, or Nirvana (which means "going out") is to be found in the elimination of Karma and the accompanying craving/aversion that bedevils us all. The extinction or "going out" of Enlightenment is the extinction of the very damaging notion that we are all separate discreet entities. Instead, Enlightenment focuses on finding unity with reality as it is, and not as we wish it to be, as this world is indeed a temporary illusion.

You're touching on an important distinction. I listened to an interview with a convert to Catholicism who had practiced Buddhism for a long time and had apparently become pretty advanced according to whatever measure they would use to judge such a thing (sorry, I'm pretty ignorant of the subject so hopefully you get what I mean). Ultimately what caused him to choose Christianity was the realization that the solution to suffering was not to eliminate all desire. It was to embrace desire, realizing that there is a proper object of our hearts' longing and that seeking the right end fulfills our nature and purpose. That said, I do have an appreciation for the notions of sacrifice and discipline and the connection of that to the solution of suffering.

 

[saintmdterps]

You're touching on an important distinction. I listened to an interview with a convert to Catholicism who had practiced Buddhism for a long time and had apparently become pretty advanced according to whatever measure they would use to judge such a thing (sorry, I'm pretty ignorant of the subject so hopefully you get what I mean). Ultimately what caused him to choose Christianity was the realization that the solution to suffering was not to eliminate all desire. It was to embrace desire, realizing that there is a proper object of our hearts' longing and that seeking the right end fulfills our nature and purpose. That said, I do have an appreciation for the notions of sacrifice and discipline and the connection of that to the solution of suffering.

Both Thomas Merton and Thich Nhat Hanh wrote excellent books on the coexistence of Buddhism and Christianity and how the two Faiths are in no way mutually exclusive, and indeed there are many commonalities regarding contemplative prayer and meditation. Thomas Merton-Zen and the Birds of Appetite, and Thich Nhat Hanh's Living Buddha, Living Christ (in which living is a verb) are two of the better-known books.

You and your friend are correct, a large part of reducing desire and craving comes from simply sitting with those emotions and calling them what they are--fear, anger, lust sadness, etc. Attempting to simply push emotions away is not skillful.

 

[HoustonSaint68]

Well, having studied Scripture related to Revelation a good bit, I'm not convinced the 144,000 means that's how many "get into heaven". If it's not allegorical, the best I can come up with is that it's representative of those entering at specific point in time (the last days or day of judgement), and thus not relevant to earlier history.

That's the point, isn't it (and the trap for those predicting end days)? The Bible's meaning (and, to me, its usefulness) depends on how you choose to take it. But you can't be halfway in if you choose to take it literally, Book of Revelations notwithstanding. Once you say a single part may be allegorical, you're already way down the slippery slope. If you go literal, you have to dance and go home with who brung ya, right?

If you take it as pure literature, it's a tremendous piece of work. Song of Songs? Luke in the New Testament? Good stuff.

If you take it as a historical (and historic) collection of lived history and wisdom, passed down orally for God ( ) knows how long and finally put to writing, it's pretty amazing as well -- especially as that view allows you to cherry-pick out some of the crazier Deuteronomy stuff and use the rest for living life. Say what you will about whether it's divinely inspired -- the folks who wrote a lot of the Bible's text had a really keen eye for human nature and behavior.

If you take it (particularly the New Testament) as a rough roadmap on how to live a life, that's not bad either. Other than the Golden Rule (which has chinks in its armor when it comes to human pathologies...and maybe capitalism, among other things!!), it's hard to think of a better pithy guide for life than WWJD -- albeit with its own flaws in the face of facsicm, communism and other forms of organized authoritarian evil.

Of course, this doesn't prove or disprove anything related to whether life continues after death. That said, there are some people who have experienced visions and memories when they've had near death, or actually died and brought back to life. I don't know if that experience is universal, but it does happen with enough frequency to take seriously. Some might consider that evidence. I find it interesting.

I find it interesting too, how some experience an extreme out-of-body experience after technical "death".

Then they're brought back to life and they can still remember the experience. Hallucinogens provide some similar experiences, which might explain how being close to dying provides something unique.

If you're up for having the elements of near death experiences explained neurologically, check out a book by Kevin Nelson M.D. titled The Spiritual Doorway in the Brain. He doesn't conclude there isn't life after death, and actually acknowledges (or at least gives lip service to) the unexplainable spiritual element of human existence. But he does a great job of explaining what happens in the brain which likely explains each of the many reported common elements of near death experiences (NDE). I really liked that, consistently throughout the book, he faithfully respects the scientific method and doesn't claim things as fact that can't be proven.

Beware though: if you've taken comfort from stories of NDE and want to continue doing so then this book may not be for you.

Tell me this - why would god pick and choose who he helps? And better yet, why would I want to blindly worship a being that allows things to happen to some but not other innocent babies?

...If there is a god, something I can never be sure of, at the very minimal, I don't believe he/it works the way religion has taught us or that he's intervening in individual lives in the fashion many believe....

This goes back to one of my previous posts...not everyone needs to have a god in the sky in order to feel meaning in their lives. A lot of people do, and that's their prerogative. But to call another person's belief or lack there of "an empty existence" just because they don't believe in some divine source to guide their lives is quite offensive.

If you REALLY want those questions addressed in a substantial way, try some C.S. Lewis on pain and suffering. I fully expect that doing so won't address your questions to your full satisfaction, but it will stir some good thinking that isn't likely to be stirred by a few comments on a football forum. That said, I will offer a personal antecdote in that regard.

Many, many, many years ago, when I was essentially a baby who had recently had a baby, I took my infant-toddler son to get a vaccination series. He was old enough to know deeply that I was his caretaker and protector, but too young to converse verbally beyond a few noun identification words. Anyway, when the pain of the needle hit him, his head immediately swung around to look me dead in the eye with an expression that, mid-wail and through a veil of tears, clearly communicated, "WTF DUDE!! WHY ARE YOU JUST STANDING THERE LETTING THIS HAPPEN TO ME????"

In a flash, it hit me that the gap between my understanding of what was happening at that moment and my son's understanding was infinitely smaller than my understanding of a suffering world and that of an omnipotent, omnipresent, involved God (if such existed). It would have been useless to explain to my infant/toddler the science of inoculation and that its' benefits far outweighed the momentary pain. So too, I wondered, might be the same uselessness of an explanation from God to me of a suffering world.

My thoughts and beliefs have evolved quite a bit since that time but I find the story still works for me as shorthand when considering human suffering in a God-filled world.

At some point, life requires a Kierkegaardian leap of Faith trusting that we will be caught on the other side. What exactly lies on that other side will remain a matter of pure speculation for this agnostic

True dat.

 

[Booker]

I pity anyone who goes through life thinking this is all it's really about. What an empty existence.

Quite the opposite. It's the finite quality of life that makes it so precious. Every day is a gift and one day it will be permanently over, so try and enjoy it while it lasts. I didn't exist until I was born, and I expect when I die and the neurons in my brain stop firing I will return to non-existence -- ashes to ashes, dust to dust. ("I think there fore I am," but once my brain no longer functions "I" will no longer be able to think, so "I" will no longer be.)

Turning it around, I think it's a shame that some people spend time in their lives focused on and bending to things there are no evidence for, such as gods and an afterlife, but I don't pity them. It does seem like a huge waste, but if it provides them fulfillment in their finite lives and doesn't interfere with mine, then good for them. I think where it does get sad is when you have people so obsessed with their idea of the "divine" that they spend their lives waiting for something magnificent/terrible to happen that will validate their beliefs that ultimately never happens.

 

[DaveXA]

Don't have a lot of time today, but a quick comment regarding Scripture genre and how to read. It's really not an either/or proposition as to reading the Bible a certain way. There are elements of history, literal and figurative sections of Scripture. I understand the objections, but if the authors intended them to be literal, we should read as such, if they intended to be figurative, then we read accordingly.

Of course, we wouldn't always know at first blush what it's intended to be, and that's where in depth study can be helpful. Just throwing in my 2 cents.

 

[Flipx99]

We would obviously all convert because we’re a bunch of mindless liberals.

Confession is good for the soul.

 

[sfidc3]

Confession is good for the soul.

Said the priest with malintent and sinful thoughts that brought on unthinkable disgusting acts...hypothetically of course?

 

[St. Geezy]

Confession is good for the soul.

Or it is just a way to feel okay about committing sin.

 

[HoustonSaint68]

Don't have a lot of time today, but a quick comment regarding Scripture genre and how to read. It's really not an either/or proposition as to reading the Bible a certain way. There are elements of history, literal and figurative sections of Scripture. I understand the objections, but if the authors intended them to be literal, we should read as such, if they intended to be figurative, then we read accordingly.

Of course, we wouldn't always know at first blush what it's intended to be, and that's where in depth study can be helpful. Just throwing in my 2 cents.

Yes, exactly.

And once you're removed from an absolutist view of reading all of the Bible literally, then you're in the realm of imperfect human interpretation. Thus rendering ANY interpretation, no matter how studied or in depth, potentially (or even likely) fallible.