NOF: Saints in position to get under the cap with ease and create another $30+ million in cap space to add new players (1 Viewer)

[Saint Spud]

This is dead wrong. If Cam Jordan (35), Demario Davis(34) and Ryan Ramczyk (broken) were to retire tomorrow without making team friendly concessions, this team would be completely up a creek. Worse than they were because of the Covid year. The problem is that these problems are by choice, not by world changing circumstances like the covid year.

They would all restructure before retiring to make it work.

But it’s also a straw man because two of those players have zero chance of retiring.

 

[Elvis]

My commentary is about spending power over the past few years and you said I’m dead wrong and you’ve subsequently went on a tangent here about a future (unlikely) hypothetical.

You said other teams were WAY less flexible. My "tangent" is based on that being dead wrong as I stated.

 

[St. Geezy]

You said other teams were WAY less flexible. My "tangent" is based on that being dead wrong as I stated.

Your tangent, as another poster points out, is a straw man that has nothing to do with what my statement was about.

It’s neither here nor there though at this point. You have your opinion, I have mine.

 

[Elvis]

But they will make team friendly concessions when they choose to retire. Either because the choose to do it for an organization that has done a lot for them or because they get a few hundred thousand to do it.

Even a team friendly concession only gets you under the cap. It doesn't improve the team, give them more cap space or replace the retired player. Those all have to be accounted for.

There is a big difference between being cap compliant and having a good team.

 

[St. Widge]

Even a team friendly concession only gets you under the cap. It doesn't improve the team, give them more cap space or replace the retired player. Those all have to be accounted for.

There is a big difference between being cap compliant and having a good team.

Which, again, comes down to talent evaluation and coaching. There is no point in having cap space if you aren't going to use it to sign good players. If you are barely compliant every year, it means you are maximizing your use of the cap to purchase talent whether you paid for free agents with that money or used it to sign your own guys to new deals or extensions. The key is did you chose to sign/keep the right players and are you drafting well enough that you have some good players on cheap deals. But, that's the case no matter how you run the cap.

And, do you think it's a coincidence that our money/contract guys like Terry Fontenot and now Khai Harley get GM jobs and interviews for GM jobs? It's certainly not because of our talent evaluation. It's because other teams like how we manage the cap.

When have the Saints ever not had the money to sign a free agent that they wanted? It has always come down to if they wanted to play here or if the front office tried to sign them or not. Did you see how much they offered to DeShaun Watson? How many times do they sign guys to deals, Derke Carr for instance, and fans of other teams are yelling and asking how could they possibly have the money to do that. But, they always do. The question is never whether they can get the money, it's whether they properly evaluated the talent. Unfortunately they have done a poor job of that since around 2018 or 2019. Or they have just done a really poor job of coaching that talent.

The often used example of them not having the money to sign someone is Trey Hendrickson, but the truth, according to Underhill, is that the Saints thought he was just a effort player and not that talented. So, they made a decision to not sign him. It wasn't that they couldn't afford him, they just made a terrible talent evaluation decision.

 

[Elvis]

They would all restructure before retiring to make it work.

But it’s also a straw man because two of those players have zero chance of retiring.

Why would they retire when we are being forced to hand them large amounts of guaranteed money in the late stage of their careers? Our hands are tied and they know it. If not for dead money, Cam would be gone after this past season. Not many, if any, teams are throwing additional guaranteed money at 35 year old declining defensive players like we'll have to do. It might be a decent way to get over the top when your championship window is still open, but pretty bad when you have a long way to go to get better.

 

[silverbullet]

To win now, don't you have to ummm win?

 

[St. Widge]

Why would they retire when we are being forced to hand them large amounts of guaranteed money in the late stage of their careers? Our hands are tied and they know it. If not for dead money, Cam would be gone after this past season. Not many, if any, teams are throwing additional guaranteed money at 35 year old declining defensive players like we'll have to do. It might be a decent way to get over the top when your championship window is still open, but pretty bad when you have a long way to go to get better.

You're the one who said they were going to retire. And Brees retired with years and money remaining on this contract. Guys retire when they are ready and guys who are elite athletes normally don't just sit around doing nothing to keep getting a pay check.

As far as Cam, he's still a good overall player and a very good run defender. And, what he brings in the locker room, is invaluable especially when a guy like DA is the HC.

But, again, what free agents could the Saints not sign because they didn't have the money?

 

[Saint Spud]

Why would they retire when we are being forced to hand them large amounts of guaranteed money in the late stage of their careers?

Youre making a different argument now.

Demario Davis just made second team all pro. He’s not still playing just because we’re paying him. He’s still playing because he’s still very good.

Cam may not be the pass rusher he used to be. But I don’t think we’re overpaying him at all for everything else he brings (run D, leadership, etc).

 

[Elvis]

Which, again, comes down to talent evaluation and coaching. There is no point in having cap space if you aren't going to use it to sign good players. If you are barely compliant every year, it means you are maximizing your use of the cap to purchase talent whether you paid for free agents with that money or used it to sign your own guys to new deals or extensions. The key is did you chose to sign/keep the right players and are you drafting well enough that you have some good players on cheap deals. But, that's the case no matter how you run the cap.

And, do you think it's a coincidence that our money/contract guys like Terry Fontenot and now Khai Harley get GM jobs and interviews for GM jobs? It's certainly not because of our talent evaluation. It's because other teams like how we manage the cap.

When have the Saints ever not had the money to sign a free agent that they wanted? It has always come down to if they wanted to play here or if the front office tried to sign them or not. Did you see how much they offered to DeShawn Watson? How many times do they sign guys to deals, Derke Carr for instance, and fans of other teams are yelling and asking how could they possibly have the money to do that. But, they always do. The question is never whether they can get the money, it's whether they properly evaluated the talent. Unfortunately they have done a poor job of that since around 2018 or 2019.

The often used example of them not having the money to sign someone is Trey Hendrickson, but the truth, according to Underhill, is that the Saints thought he was just a effort player and not that talented. So, they made a decision to not sign him. It wasn't that they couldn't afford him, they just made a terrible talent evaluation decision.

We just see it differently. They are using a longer cap management model that I think isn't smart. It doesn't allow the team to move off of old or under performing players without massive ramifications. Yes, they were able to go get Derek Carr, but say they thought that signing was a mistake. Or that his AC joint ended up completely shredded when he got injured this year. Could they leave his contract alone to get out from under it in 2025? No, they couldn't. There is no scenario where they aren't kicking his cap number into 2026 and guaranteeing him more money than his original contract had in it regardless of how poorly he played or his availability. That is in large part because of the same strategy used to manage the cap number of other players in prior years.

 

[Elvis]

You're the one who said they were going to retire. And Brees retired with years and money remaining on this contract. Guys retire when they are ready and guys who are elite athletes normally don't just sit around doing nothing to keep getting a pay check.

As far as Cam, he's still a good overall player and a very good run defender. And, what he brings in the locker room, is invaluable especially when a guy like DA is the HC.

But, again, what free agents could the Saints not sign because they didn't have the money?

I didn't say they were going to retire, I presented a scenario that would be disastrous for the team if it were to occur and it isn't far fetched for two of the oldest defenders in the league regardless of how they are playing today.

 

[Rouxble]

I don’t think we make any splash signings. But some of the rotation guys you mention played well in spots. Which is what you hope to accomplish in FA if you build a decent roster otherwise.

As far as the Titans, their “cap strategy” led to them trading their best player not named Derrick Henry and then subsequently falling off a cliff. If you’re not retaining your good players, then what difference does it make? Theyre “flexible…” for what?

They swung and missed thinking Burks could step in and be the guy, that or decided that the team went through Henry and everyone else was just window dressing. Also, Brown was coming off a year where he missed four games and had less than 1000 yards receiving, they may have decided that he wasn't worth a big commitment.

At the end of the day, all other teams have more flexibility on their roster decisions, and they maintain that flexibility by not maxing out every year with a mid roster. There has to be a reason teams aren't falling over themselves to imitate our strategy, nothing that works in this league goes without being copied.

 

[Saint Spud]

We just see it differently. They are using a longer cap management model that I think isn't smart. It doesn't allow the team to move off of old or under performing players without massive ramifications.

And thats where we are disagreeing. Those ramifications can be pushed into the future over and over using different player contracts as a shell game.

You can be successful with it as long as you’re drafting well. Just like any other method. Which, unfortunately, we haven’t done.

 

[Saint Spud]

They swung and missed thinking Burks could step in and be the guy, that or decided that the team went through Henry and everyone else was just window dressing. Also, Brown was coming off a year where he missed four games and had less than 1000 yards receiving, they may have decided that he wasn't worth a big commitment.

At the end of the day, all other teams have more flexibility on their roster decisions, and they maintain that flexibility by not maxing out every year with a mid roster. There has to be a reason teams aren't falling over themselves to imitate our strategy, nothing that works in this league goes without being copied.

I’ve seen that chart. It doesn’t account for how we do business.

And you’re right. Tennessee stinks because they made poor personnel decisions. Just like us. We manage the cap differently but are in a similar spot because our drafts stink.

 

[Rouxble]

We swung and (MAYBE) missed on the QB. That’s the biggest difference there.

The miss on the QB will ultimately have more to do with not having the stacked roster our FO seems to think we have, particularly up front. We're hoping to get incredibly lucky at this point because we may need three new starters on the OL just one year after our prize free agent acquisition.

Does our team really have any game-changing talents on it at this point that justify being all in like we are? I would say no, not since Brees.