Petraeus works to halt foreign fighters. (1 Viewer)

[blackadder]

Seriously, though Adder, the toughest thing seems to be getting conservatives to look objectively at these situations. It's like we should just ignore the HUGE part that the U.S., Britain, and Israel have played in worsening, and sometimes creating, the conditions that help foment terrorism and aggression. Unless of course you believe that Arabs are just genetically defective and born with a desire to kill. Or that Islam is by definition a call to destroy the rest of the world. I'm not naive enough to think that diplomacy without military force will solve the problems, or that the Iranian government is a bunch of peace-loving persaycats, but it seems that we are SO willing to see the world in oversimplified terms of GOOD GUYS (us) vs. BAD GUYS (muslims.)

Someone asking me why I "hate America" in 5,4,3,2........

Excessive mea culpas are a non-starter. There is research that suggests people are hard wired to have a polticial viewpoint to the right or left. In other words, no matter what the facts, a large part of the U.S. electorate can not acknowlege or internalize American mistakes or failures.

It's not their fault completely because it's just their brain chemistry:

http://forums.military.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/409192893/m/2040014541001

DD seems to be wired this way. Certain words or phrases short circuit the synapses and processing of logic is derailed. So, the "my country right or wrong" set just may not be capable of seeing it any other way.

I recall at one point in the 90s Bill Clinton issued an apology for all the destruction wreaked on Central America by the CIA funded wars to restore the United Fruit Company set to power.

http://www.allbusiness.com/central-america/163471-1.html

That did not play well with the right.

Actually, I'm not interested in fulsome mea culpas. It's in the past. Learn from it and move on. That's all I'm asking for.

Actions speak louder than words. Skip the words of regret, the finger pointing and teeth gnashing and move forward with new actions.

Until we can do that, it's hard for me to accurately gauge exactly what the Iranian intent is, since if I was an Iranian and I saw three aircraft carriers off my coast and an army on my border, I have to assume hostile intent and act accordingly.

Likewise if I watch other countries in the region reject the NPT and develop nuclear power and weapons (and attach said nuked to cruise missles placed on submarines patrolling my coast) yet I am told I have to relinquish my rights under the NPT, I see a double standard and my bottom gets chapped.

 

[DadsDream]

DD seems to be wired this way. Certain words or phrases short circuit the synapses and processing of logic is derailed. So, the "my country right or wrong" set just may not be capable of seeing it any other way.

You underestimate the power of the Dark Side.

 

[blackadder]

What urgency? Why would Iran launch a missile at Europe? There is Zero chance for that. Zero. The Europeans have been their best customers. The Russians are their major business partner and an attack on Europe spreads poision over Russia.

Trying to draw the Europeans into this is ludicrous.

Where's the launch pad? The silo? This looks like if anything an assembly facility.

But we know Iran has medium range missiles already and that they will continue to improve them.

If they develop ICBMs the upshot is that they have a deterrent. We can no longer threaten them. They can play the crazy angle and adopt the MAD posture that we had during the Cold War.

If you want Iran to relinquish its nuclear program then it has to be a regional effort and include bringing Israel's nukes under international monitoring as well.

No self-respecting country is going to sit still while enemies point nukes at its capital and park aircraft carriers off its coast.

You want progress? Start dealing with them like adults and recognize and incorporate into the equation their own legitimate security concerns.

You want the status quo, you want the Iranians to do whatever they need to do counter US and Israeli threats, then maintain the status quo.

Here you go. A much better, freely available, view of the 'secret' Iranian site:

Flash Earth ...satellite and aerial imagery of the Earth in Flash

If this site is so sensitive, why is it not in the side of a mountain, or underground?

The powers that be take us all for chumps.

 

[BullDawg]

Israel has absolutely nothing to do with Iran supplying AQI, JAM, and the other various insurgent organizations with the rockets, mortars, IEDs, CFPs, small arms, etc. which are being used to target Coalition and Iraqi forces to include your's truly. In fact, I'm off to set up the audio/visual support for the memorial to a Balad Airman who was killed this week. He leaves behind a wife and 5 children.

 

[blackadder]

Israel has absolutely nothing to do with Iran supplying AQI, JAM, and the other various insurgent organizations with the rockets, mortars, IEDs, CFPs, small arms, etc. which are being used to target Coalition and Iraqi forces to include your's truly. In fact, I'm off to set up the audio/visual support for the memorial to a Balad Airman who was killed this week. He leaves behind a wife and 5 children.

And they have nothing to do with the support in terms of transport, cash, and funding for foreign fighters from Saudi Arabia and the other Sunni countries that also makes all that possible.

Remove Iran, you still have Americans dying due to Sunni insurgents who draw support from lots of places other than Iran. Doesn't excuse Iran if the charges are true, but puzzles one as to why the rest get a pass but the Iranian gov is singled out.

In Iraq, Sunni insurgents still aim to oust U.S., Shiites | csmonitor.com

Israel has everything to do with the broader equation of settling the Middle East and getting us out of the mess.

We can do a deal. We'll stop supplying Jundallah and the various separatist groups in Iran and they can stop supporting Iraqi Shiites.

US backing 'secret war' against Iran? | csmonitor.com

There's too much going on behind the scenes.

Government statements and allegations, as well as mainstream media reports are virtually useless....

 

[blackadder]

And they have nothing to do with the support in terms of transport, cash, and funding for foreign fighters from Saudi Arabia and the other Sunni countries that also makes all that possible.

Remove Iran, you still have Americans dying due to Sunni insurgents who draw support from lots of places other than Iran. Doesn't excuse Iran if the charges are true, but puzzles one as to why the rest get a pass but the Iranian gov is singled out.

In Iraq, Sunni insurgents still aim to oust U.S., Shiites | csmonitor.com

Israel has everything to do with the broader equation of settling the Middle East and getting us out of the mess.

We can do a deal. We'll stop supplying Jundallah and the various separatist groups in Iran and they can stop supporting Iraqi Shiites.

US backing 'secret war' against Iran? | csmonitor.com

There's too much going on behind the scenes.

Government statements and allegations, as well as mainstream media reports are virtually useless....

Bomb kills several in southern Iran

2 minutes ago

TEHRAN, Iran - A bomb explosion in a mosque in southern Iran Saturday killed several of people, state television reported.

An initial television report said scores had been killed in the bombing in the city of Shiraz, about 559 miles south of the capital Tehran. But it later revised its death toll to several and said an unspecified number of people were also injured.

The semi-official Fars news agency said eight people were killed and more than 66 injured. The official IRNA news agency said several people were injured but added that no official reports were yet available on deaths. There was no immediate explanation for the discrepancies in the reports.

Bomb kills several in southern Iran - Yahoo! News

Freelancers? Jundallah? Someone else on our payroll?

Who knows?

The proxy war has been on from both directions for years.

The Blotter: Bush Authorizes New Covert Action Against Iran

The Raw Story | Report: Saudis, US sponsoring covert action against Iran

Bush Authorizes New Covert Action Against Iran. Industry Business Article - Research, News, Information, Contacts, Divisions, Subsidiaries, Business Associations

 

[BullDawg]

The Balad Airman was an EOD operator, considered one of the absolute best by his contemporaries. Per the Bronze Star awarded posthumously, he was the victim of a new IED specially designed to take out EOD personnel. It was a two-part IED. He had "safed" the first part which was visible and had just detected a wire leading to the second when it was detonated by remote control.

Technical Sergeant Anthony "Tony" Capra has two daughters and three sons who will grow up without their daddy thanks to material shipped in from Iran.

 

[DadsDream]

Cold, hard facts and reality vs rhetoric and conjecture. Stark and sobering. Thanks, Bulldawg.

 

[BullDawg]

Bomb kills several in southern Iran - Yahoo! News

Freelancers? Jundallah? Someone else on our payroll?

Who knows?

The proxy war has been on from both directions for years.

The Blotter: Bush Authorizes New Covert Action Against Iran

The Raw Story | Report: Saudis, US sponsoring covert action against Iran

Bush Authorizes New Covert Action Against Iran. Industry Business Article - Research, News, Information, Contacts, Divisions, Subsidiaries, Business Associations

Or maybe just an accident?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24084359/

 

[blackadder]

Or maybe just an accident?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24084359/

Or that too.

But you can understand why the first thought would be a bomb.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L12653989.htm

 

[dapperdan]

US, Iraqi troops prepare the battlefield in Sadr City - The Long War Journal

US, Iraqi troops prepare the battlefield in Sadr City
By Bill RoggioApril 12, 2008 9:53 PM

Three weeks after the Iraqi government initiated Operation Knights Assault in Basrah, US and Iraqi forces have squared off against the Mahdi Army daily in the Shia slums of Sadr City. Additional US and Iraqi forces have moved into northeastern Baghdad to prepare for a possible major engagement against the Mahdi Army.

While Muqtada al Sadr, the leader of the Mahdi Army and the Sadrist political movement, called for his fighters to pull off the streets on March 30, the Mahdi Army has continued to attack US and Iraqi forces in Sadr City and northeastern Baghdad. The Mahdi Army began seeding the streets of Sadr City with roadside bombs just days after Sadr declared the unilateral ceasefire. "Outlaw groups have planted roadside bombs and other explosives in most of the streets of Sadr City," the Baghdad Operational Command reported.

Fighting erupts in Sadr City after Sadr aide killed - The Long War Journal

Fighting erupts in Sadr City after Sadr aide killed
By Bill RoggioApril 11, 2008 10:00 PM

Clashes between the Mahdi Army and US and Iraqi forces broke out in Sadr City in Baghdad late Friday after a senior aide to Muqtada al Sadr was murdered in the city of Najaf. US and Iraqi forces confirmed killing 13 Mahdi Army fighters in eastern Baghdad after a series of complex attacks.

The latest bout of fighting in the Mahdi Army strongholds in eastern Baghdad began after Riyad al Nouri was murdered by gunmen outside his home in Najaf. Nouri was in charge of Sadr's office in Najaf and was also Sadr's brother-in-law. Sadr immediately accused "the hands of the occupiers and their tails," referring to the Iraqi government, of conducting the attack. Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki immediately condemned the killing.

 

[dapperdan]

Coming on the heels of the Iraqi army confrontation with the Sadrists last month, this development is interesting.

While many have questioned the effectiveness of Iraqi army's confrontation last month, imo, the "effectiveness" issue, or lack of planning by the Iraqi army is really a secondary issue. What is more important, imo, is the willingness of Maliki to confront Sadr. To a large extent, we can assist the Iraqi army with competency issues, planning issues; imo, there is less that we can do to affect Maliki's willingness to confront Sadr.

We may be witnessing something quite historic in the sense that when Maliki took office, he largely owed his victory to Sadr. They were political allies and Maliki treated Sadr as such. It seems that over time, this relationship has weakened; to the point where Maliki is willing to confront Sadr.

Throw into the mix Sistani's declaration last week about the rule of government, and you have both the political preconditions needed, as well as the religious go-ahead, if you will, to support a confrontation with Sadr.

It appears that at the same time, the U.S. has been actively working to earn Maliki's trust. Slowly, it appears to me, that we've worked hard at gaining Maliki's trust, baby-step by baby-step; while eroding Sadr's military and political base.

 

[dapperdan]

Or that too.

But you can understand why the first thought would be a bomb.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L12653989.htm

But why would the "first thought" be that it would be someone on the U.S. payroll, "Freelancers? Jundallah? Someone else on our payroll?".

Out of all the possible choices available, why would the focus be on pointing the finger immediately at the U.S. and coming to a premature conclusion. It becomes a bit of a political Rorschach test.

 

[blackadder]

But why would the "first thought" be that it would be someone on the U.S. payroll, "Freelancers? Jundallah? Someone else on our payroll?".

Out of all the possible choices available, why would the focus be on pointing the finger immediately at the U.S. and coming to a premature conclusion. It becomes a bit of a political Rorschach test.

You note the question marks.

I merely hold out the possibility that one of these groups we have contacts with is involved, based on ample past experience of covert operations and on the fact that we are known to be currently running "de-stabilization" covert operations in Iran and funding anti-government groups with a history of terrorism.

I'm not saying we necessarily directly plan or order these things in Iran.

But by our own standards any link or indirect, arm's length support of a group like Jundallah is considered tantamount to direct participation in the act.

For example, Saddam's donation of cash to surviving family members of Palestinian militants and suicide bombers was presented to us unequivocally as "support for global terrorism."

I merely apply our own standards to these things and since they are often double standards, discomfort results.

 

[blackadder]

But why would the "first thought" be that it would be someone on the U.S. payroll, "Freelancers? Jundallah? Someone else on our payroll?".

Out of all the possible choices available, why would the focus be on pointing the finger immediately at the U.S. and coming to a premature conclusion. It becomes a bit of a political Rorschach test.

And because as I stated the proxy war has been underway for years already and we are funding our own proxies who are killing Iranians.

None of this is happening in a vacuum. What Iran does in Iraq is influenced by what we do in Iran.

You want to play this game, there are going to be costs. Of course it could be that there is a hope that Iran is goaded into doing something stupid and getting caught red handed, which provides the pretext everyone is looking for to shift focus of our whole Middle East effort to confronting Iran rather than sorting out Iraq and Afghanistan.

http://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/itsonlyfair/latimes0233.html

Iran says U.S. aids rebels at its borders
The violence may be driving Tehran's efforts to back its own allies in Iraq.
By Borzou Daragahi
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
April 15, 2008

BAGHDAD — A series of conflicts with insurgent groups along Iran's borders may be impelling Tehran to back its own allies in Iraq in what it regards as a proxy war with the U.S., according to security experts and officials in the U.S., Iran and Iraq.

Dozens of Iranian officials, members of the security forces and insurgents belonging to Kurdish, Arab Iranian and Baluch groups have died in the fighting in recent years. It now appears to be heating up once again after an unusually cold and snowy winter.

In recent weeks, Iranians have begun the now-routine bombardment of suspected rebel Iranian Kurd positions in northern Iraq, and guerrillas have claimed incursions into northwestern Iran.

Some Iranians blamed Sunni Arab radicals for an explosion Saturday that killed 12 and injured 202 at a gathering where a preacher criticized the Wahhabi form of Islam that inspires Osama bin Laden.

None of the groups appear to pose a serious threat to Iran, but Tehran regards them as Washington's allies in an effort to pressure it to scale back its nuclear program and withhold support for militant groups fighting Israel. American and Iraqi officials in turn accuse Iran of supporting Shiite Muslim militias and other militant groups in Iraq to keep the U.S. preoccupied and the Baghdad government weak.

Although a U.S. intelligence estimate in December undercut claims that Iran has a secret nuclear weapons program and appeared to lower the possibility of a direct military conflict over Iran's uranium enrichment operations, tensions over Iraq have increased. U.S. officials accuse Iran of backing Shiite militias close to cleric Muqtada Sadr that fought Iraqi government forces to a standstill in Basra and Baghdad two weeks ago.

Analysts say the anti-Iranian groups are tempting assets for the U.S. They say it would be a surprise if the groups were not receiving U.S. funding, but that the strategy would probably not work.

"It will give more encouragement to Iran's hard-liners to step up their own efforts to assist anti-American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan," said Bruce Riedel, a former CIA analyst now at the Brookings Institution, a Washington think tank.

Among the most active groups is the Party for Free Life in Kurdistan, known by its Kurdish acronym, PEJAK. It has hundreds of well-trained fighters along with camps in northern Iraq.

Iranian soldiers guarding the border are sometimes ambushed by PEJAK fighters. Iran responds with artillery attacks that send Iraqi villagers scurrying for cover. Border skirmishes last summer and fall between Iranian security forces and PEJAK left dozens dead on both sides.

"It takes two to tango."