QB Depth Around The League - (Dolphins Dilemma?) (1 Viewer)

[Saintman2884]

Head Coach Mike McDaniel said in his presser today that they will bring a QB in.

They had Mike White (formerly with the Jets) in the Dolphins training camp before releasing him at cut down.

Bringing him in makes the most sense for the short term since he already is familiar with the system and can be had on the cheap without any compensation. White is currently on the practice squad of the Bills.

Keep this in mind. A QB on a practice squad doesn't have to agree to being signed away by another team. However, if he does sign with another team he must be placed on the new teams active 53-man roster. Few players would refuse the chance to play and the increase in salary that comes with it.

Putting Tua on IR (out 4 games minimum) would free up a roster spot. Dolphins could then sign Tannehill, an experienced QB that would not cost compensation and should be able to pick up the system quickly.

Tannehill seems like the most logical, rational choice because he's a great "system QB" or "game-manager" type of QB who follows the play book and doesn't deviate from the script and Miami has a very strong, talented supporting cast that will still look good with him running the offense. Can he win or lead them to a SB appearance at this point in his career? Probably not, maybe not even being enough of a factor to win a AFC East (that division belongs to Buffalo for the foreseeable future), but I easily see Tannehill leading Dolphins to 10-11 wins and a WC berth.

Plus, from a PR-standpoint, it would provide a great final act for Tannehill's long and winding career to finish his career with the team that first drafted him back in 2012 and he actually had some success with for several seasons in his 6-7 years as Dolphins' QB.

 

[Saintman2884]

a cautionary tale about hyper-specialization??

To be completely honest and candid, Guido, Tua sort of came into the NFL as slightly-damaged goods with that hip pointer injury that he suffered in October 2019 that ended his NCAAF career. This is a very similar injury that ended Bo Jackson's career in January 1991 in a AFC Divisional Playoff game vs. Bengals and even Tua admitted that this injury significantly affected his mobility and speed in his first few years as a starter.

Let's also remember that in his first two seasons there were more then a few games where he was removed due to poor play or minor injury and Ryan Fitzpatrick had to come in and essentially win some come-from-behind games, most notable one Raiders road game in 2020 where he had a miraculous 4th quarter showing.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

To be completely honest and candid, Guido, Tua sort of came into the NFL as slightly-damaged goods with that hip pointer injury that he suffered in October 2019 that ended his NCAAF career. This is a very similar injury that ended Bo Jackson's career in January 1991 in a AFC Divisional Playoff game vs. Bengals and even Tua admitted that this injury significantly affected his mobility and speed in his first few years as a starter.

Let's also remember that in his first two seasons there were more then a few games where he was removed due to poor play or minor injury and Ryan Fitzpatrick had to come in and essentially win some come-from-behind games, most notable one Raiders road game in 2020 where he had a miraculous 4th quarter showing.

it's not about Tua - the NFL has created a a position so specialized that only about 10-15 players can perform the job the way it was meant to be
but there are 32 of these jobs, meaning that there would be 32 backups - that's 34 players doing jobs they're not qualified for
there's a design flaw in there somewhere

 

[Saintman2884]

it's not about Tua - the NFL has created a a position so specialized that only about 10-15 players can perform the job the way it was meant to be
but there are 32 of these jobs, meaning that there would be 32 backups - that's 34 players doing jobs they're not qualified for
there's a design flaw in there somewhere

Well, part of the design flaw sort of came about organically or developed incrementally due to more and more NFL scouts looking for dual-threat QB's that can run, throw and pass effectively ala Randall Cunningham, Steve Young, Michael Vick, etc. Over the past 35-40 years, there's been this growing obsession about drafting QB's who have a fair amount of mobility or speed opposed to primarily pocket-based QB's like Brees was for us and excelled at for so many years. And while Brees could hardly be compared to Steve Young or Donovan McNabb as a scrambler, compared to his 70's and 80's predecessors, Brees was actually pretty mobile juxtaposed to guys like Danny White, Phil Simms, or Ron Jaworski from 40 years ago. Think about it, Guido, when you were in HS in the late 70's/early 80's: most NCAAF and NFL QB's werent very mobile, agile, quick and fleet-footed players who could bend opposing defenses in numerous ways. It was still customary for the QB to be primarily a pocket passer and if he had a little speed, maybe scramble as a last resort.

Even QB's today we might define as "pocket passers" are far more agile, quicker and faster then those immobile, "stick figure" QB's who got sacked and beat up repeatedly like Dave Krieg, Ken O'Brien, Erik Kramer 30-35 years ago and IMHO, Krieg is one of the most underrated QB's in NFL history over the past 50 years.

 

[DSnfla]

The Dolphins offensive scheme is too complicated to just go out and get any QB. I say complicated, but I think I mean dynamic. Either or both - which is why I love watching them play, they are my 2nd favorite team.

They need a QB that can move and can pickup some exotic ideas. So not every QB can do those things and I think the only reason why Tua is QB1 is because he was born into that system, for lack of a better word. But Tua's career is probably done and it's a good thing. I don't need another QB with CTE doing CTE things. He's paid and should just walk away after having a decent career.

That said, they could go for Tannehill. That might work. Dobbs could work as well, but the 9ers would be risking a lot if Purdy got hurt. Winston would be ideal, he is like Tua, but he might be the Browns QB1 sooner than later.

They could make a deal for Browning or Bagent. I don't think Haener is quite what they want, but he does have big brains. Rattler would be the absolute best choice for them, but that ain't happening at all unless the deal is rich enough.

It's going to be interesting to watch this play out, but in the end I hope Tua is okay and they allow him to walk away with dignity (and not be greedy SOBs).

MM runs almost the same system that Shanny does with some variations. It's not a system that needs a rocket scientist @ QB. It's a very QB friendly system. My guess is they will sign Tannehill or White since he was in TC and try and get RT up to speed asap

 

[kewee]

Tannehill and Beathard are the only qbs on that list that even gives them a "chance" to win

 

[Saintman2884]

Tannehill and Beathard are the only qbs on that list that even gives them a "chance" to win

Of those two veteran QB's, Tannehill is the only one with any real past success both in Miami and in Tennessee.

 

[solarbear88]

it's not about Tua - the NFL has created a a position so specialized that only about 10-15 players can perform the job the way it was meant to be
but there are 32 of these jobs, meaning that there would be 32 backups - that's 34 players doing jobs they're not qualified for
there's a design flaw in there somewhere

Agree with this somewhat. The number of people who are 6'3 plus. 2.0 sec processing and release. Strong throwing motion. Feel for the game. Athletic. Are quite small. The hardest part is the processing, which teams are hamstrung to improve with prospects. There is just no playing time to help.

The most similar position is an NHL goalie. Imagine NHL goalies developing without a farm system. Get drafted at 20. Practice. Sit around till something really bad happens or someone retires. But this is what they do in the NFL. Each team in the NHL has 2 goalies and several more getting 80 games within their farm system. Sometimes they even keep the 2nd best goalie with the farm team so he gets his 80 games. How's Rattler or Haener getting their playing experience to develop? They are not. I give Haener maybe a 5% chance to develop and Rattler maybe a 20%.

The NFL lacks a way to properly groom new QBs. If you're not starting you are not getting playing time and your reps are not that meaningful either. No wonder there is a big problem. Hey, we got a unique position here where only a handful of people born each year can play...and we are going to develop the next generation through a few drills and a constant stream of Clipboard curls. Yeah right. Sounds optimal, eh?

 

[Artifactual]

it's not about Tua - the NFL has created a a position so specialized that only about 10-15 players can perform the job the way it was meant to be
but there are 32 of these jobs, meaning that there would be 32 backups - that's 34 players doing jobs they're not qualified for
there's a design flaw in there somewhere

Agree with this somewhat. The number of people who are 6'3 plus. 2.0 sec processing and release. Strong throwing motion. Feel for the game. Athletic. Are quite small. The hardest part is the processing, which teams are hamstrung to improve with prospects. There is just no playing time to help.

The most similar position is an NHL goalie. Imagine NHL goalies developing without a farm system. Get drafted at 20. Practice. Sit around till something really bad happens or someone retires. But this is what they do in the NFL. Each team in the NHL has 2 goalies and several more getting 80 games within their farm system. Sometimes they even keep the 2nd best goalie with the farm team so he gets his 80 games. How's Rattler or Haener getting their playing experience to develop? They are not. I give Haener maybe a 5% chance to develop and Rattler maybe a 20%.

The NFL lacks a way to properly groom new QBs. If you're not starting you are not getting playing time and your reps are not that meaningful either. No wonder there is a big problem. Hey, we got a unique position here where only a handful of people born each year can play...and we are going to develop the next generation through a few drills and a constant stream of Clipboard curls. Yeah right. Sounds optimal, eh?

You Guys Nailed It! Great Posts!

The NFL/NFLPA/CBA only allows for so much practice time. The starting quarterbacks get the majority of reps with the ones in training camp and all of the meaningful reps during regular season practices.

Until something changes with the above, developing skills and learning firsthand by younger quarterbacks will continue at the same pace with the same results.

It would seem logical if there was something similar to The Manning Passing Academy for players coming out of college and a few years into the pros. Instructors could include former NFL QBs and former and/or unemployed NFL coaches, especially Quarterback coaches. You wouldn't have the hundreds of kids that attend the Manning camp where there is volume in enrollment fees, but you could charge a lot more and be more personalized in teaching to guys that have recently completed college. These young men can afford to invest in their future that is upon them in the present. It could increase their value and draft status. Their grades from this camp would rival those of the NFL Combine. These teachers would consist of people that have seen it all from that position and could put those in their tutelage under boot camp conditions on the field and in the classroom. This could be a month-long seminar help in early spring before OTAs begin.

The only other solutions would be to allow more practice and meeting time for the Quarterbacks. A farm league won't work. If it would we would have see more quarterbacks transitioning from the CFL, UFL, XFL, USFL and the Arena Football League. As much as the NFL wants the international fan support ($), they allowed NFL Europe to fold. Even Europeans with limited knowledge of the game could tell it wasn't on par with the NFL. The competition in these leagues and college is not on par with what's required to have success in the NFL and the NFL prospects are on NFL rosters instead of these junior varsity leagues. My .02 cents.

 

[Goatman Saint]

But here’s the problem. Most colleges prize mobile running QBs because the overall talent level of defenses isn’t as great and a running QB can rely on his speed to make plays without really learning all that great to a system. That’s why you see numerous QBs out of Fresno state. Fresno runs a generally pro type system for QBs. Dilfer, both Carrs, Haener all out of Fresno, which isn’t really some great college powerhouse.

So the amount of players coming up that are NFL ready is really pretty slim because that’s not how colleges work. Then couple that lack of knowledge with an NFL which has now a huge amount of limits on practice time, and coaches that just aren’t that good at times. They are looking to put in a guy, not train up a guy. It creates an issue with no easy solutions.

But you also see what happens to a mobile running QB. He has a short lifespan and gets beat down quickly. Tua is simply another highly mobile QB who exposes himself as he becomes a RB essentially and defenses go after. There will be another highly mobile RB to take his place somewhere in the NFL and he will get pounded down quickly also.

 

[SweetT]

With Tua’s concussion history, the Dolphins should’ve signed a viable backup long time ago.

 

[Saintman2884]

But here’s the problem. Most colleges prize mobile running QBs because the overall talent level of defenses isn’t as great and a running QB can rely on his speed to make plays without really learning all that great to a system. That’s why you see numerous QBs out of Fresno state. Fresno runs a generally pro type system for QBs. Dilfer, both Carrs, Haener all out of Fresno, which isn’t really some great college powerhouse.

So the amount of players coming up that are NFL ready is really pretty slim because that’s not how colleges work. Then couple that lack of knowledge with an NFL which has now a huge amount of limits on practice time, and coaches that just aren’t that good at times. They are looking to put in a guy, not train up a guy. It creates an issue with no easy solutions.

But you also see what happens to a mobile running QB. He has a short lifespan and gets beat down quickly. Tua is simply another highly mobile QB who exposes himself as he becomes a RB essentially and defenses go after. There will be another highly mobile RB to take his place somewhere in the NFL and he will get pounded down quickly also.

Tua is also extremely unlucky then most other mobile QB's who looked outstanding for several seasons and helped their teams win until injuries that werent concussions but knee, leg or ACL injuries forced them to alter their playing style to a more pocket-passing oriented system. Past QB's who fit this mold were Randall Cunningham, especially Michael Vick post-Falcons, Eagles tenure from 2009-2013, Steve Young was essentially forced into retirement due to concussions suffered from late hits, including one that knocked him out on the field vs. Cardinals in a early 1999 MNF game. Their are some, albeit relatively few, mobile QB's that do defy the law of averages and manage to avoid serious injuries, or at least, career-threatening ones.

Those above-mentioned guys either played in an era where they were lucky or fortunate enough not to receive as many concussions in a short period of time like Tua or more accurately, 20-25 years ago, NFL's concern for player safety as it related to effects of concussions wasnt a high priority and most trainers just made concussed players sit on the bench for a quarter or two "until the cobwebs cleared up" and then sent back out again.

BTW, the QB that immediately came to mind after reading your first paragraph was Cam Newton considering his success leading Auburn to a BCSNC, and parlaying that into having several great seasons until arguably he had his best statistical season and the game that would shape, define and mark the slow downfall of his career: Super Bowl 50. That game saw Newton get blistered, blown up, and knocked around so many times to where late in the 4th quarter, with Carolina down only 17-14 and after being strip-sacked by Von Miller and the loose ball on the field right in front of him, Newton froze up and didn't try to recover the fumble. I think his performance at such a large stage seriously damaged his confidence, ability as on-field leader and his penchant for once making huge, momentum-building plays. Something fundamental broke within his psyche that night and he never fully recovered and frankly neither have the Carolina Panthers.

 

[Saintman2884]

With Tua’s concussion history, the Dolphins should’ve signed a viable backup long time ago.

Skylar Thompson doesn't exactly strike me as a decent, viable backup who can win or be competitive for Miami for several games until when or even if Tua is cleared to return. Or whether that is the most intelligent, prudent move for the sake of his long-term mental, psychological, and cognitive health.

Ryan Tannehill might be their best available option right now because I can't see Atlanta trading away Cousins seeing how much they paid him via in FA last off-season although they then paradoxically (or not) drafted his eventual replacement in this year's Draft with Penix.

 

[Goatman Saint]

With Tua’s concussion history, the Dolphins should’ve signed a viable backup long time ago.

But where do you find said backup? We talk consistently how there are about 20 good QBs in a league with 32 places. Then you need 32 quality backups where what are there 7? And when your starter is making what a quarter of the salary cap? Where does the cap space for a quality (highly paid) backup come in? The Saints don’t have one either. We have a rookie that ran well and threw a couple of nice passes and a couple year vet who on the field didn’t produce like they hoped. So can’t fault the dolphins there

 

[Goatman Saint]

Tua is also extremely unlucky then most other mobile QB's who looked outstanding for several seasons and helped their teams win until injuries that werent concussions but knee, leg or ACL injuries forced them to alter their playing style to a more pocket-passing oriented system. Past QB's who fit this mold were Randall Cunningham, especially Michael Vick post-Falcons, Eagles tenure from 2009-2013, Steve Young was essentially forced into retirement due to concussions suffered from late hits, including one that knocked him out on the field vs. Cardinals in a early 1999 MNF game. Their are some, albeit relatively few, mobile QB's that do defy the law of averages and manage to avoid serious injuries, or at least, career-threatening ones.

Those above-mentioned guys either played in an era where they were lucky or fortunate enough not to receive as many concussions in a short period of time like Tua or more accurately, 20-25 years ago, NFL's concern for player safety as it related to effects of concussions wasnt a high priority and most trainers just made concussed players sit on the bench for a quarter or two "until the cobwebs cleared up" and then sent back out again.

They simply didn’t care about concussions. I remember watching Joe Montana when he was playing and a couple of times laughing how he walked over to the opposing teams bench area because he was suffering from concussions yet still played. In the old days it was called shaking off the cobwebs and get back to it. You laughed as a fan that he got his bell rung so bad he didn’t know where he was sort of thing.

But part of it is also QBs need to learn to get down. Watching Tua drop his head to bowl over Hamlin was showing how incredibly stupid of a game time player he is. The slide rule is there for a reason. If he would’ve slid we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Players in general, and QBs in particular need to realize that not every play is 4th quarter in the Super Bowl and self preservation is important. Slide, get out of bounds, live for another day.