Reopen the Kent State file and charge the appropriate guardsmen with murder... (1 Viewer)

[Mr. Sparkle]

My kid at UT-Austin was ready to grab a baton and join the state troopers clearing out the encampment, partly in solidarity with his Jewish buddies who were pretty upset but mostly because he had a physics final in a building near the encampment. He had a hard enough time with physics without having to take the test with drums and whistles and chanting outside the window.

 

[Dago]

I don't even really know where to begin in unpacking this whole thing, b/c it's just a mess.

Israel is a military occupying power and has been for 70 years, holding a population without the right to self determination while continuously expanding territory. At various points of their history they have engaged in acts of terrorism, supported ethnic cleansing and so on.

Palestinians at various points in time have embraced terrorism, rejected compromises (Madeleine Albright's quote "The Palestinians never miss a chance to miss a chance"), nuturued anti-semetic beliefs, etc.

I hate the whole both sides trope, but there aren't really great innocent parties at the macro level. Just the daily tragedy of kids getting bombed (whether they are attending a music festival by terrorists or being bombed in their home by F16).

Of course 18-22 year olds are going to protest US involvement in things like this. They're young and passionate and haven't been exposed to all the cynicism that creeps up over a lifetime. I get it. I just don't feel like there's an obvious side to root for here, other than just innocent life -- but to me that means waving all the flags or none of them. That means asking the US to withhold all funding from everyone until they've agreed on a real path forward. At the moment, I don't trust the Israeli government or Palestinian leadership to be honest partners in this.

I wish these kids would also funnel this energy into local issues - like US healthcare, or better wages, affordable housing, and so on.

The British were internationally recognized as controlling that territory after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. In 1947, the UN partitioned the territory and it was the Arabs that refused to acknowledge it and the first recognized action was terrorist activities against Jewish people on November 30th, 1947 (the day after the UN mandate vote).

As soon as the British withdrew their forces in accordance to the mandate (May 16th, 1948), the combined forces of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon attacked. The next major conflict was the Suez Crisis in 1956 which occurred due to the president of Egypt seizing the Suez Canal which was actually owned by England and France. This was done as an attack on Israeli shipping.

In the precursor to the 1967 6-Day War, Syria was bombarding Jewish settlements and President Nasser ran the UN peacekeeping force out.

Once again, I do not condone many of the things that Israel has done, but acting like this is all on Israel is ridiculous and not backed up by history. Who started the Yom Kippur War of 1973? As far as the history of the Palestinian State, this is a quote from former PLO leader Zuheir Mohsen in March, 1977: "The Palestinian people does not exist … there is no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese", though Palestinian identity would be emphasized for political reasons.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I wish these kids would also funnel this energy into local issues - like US healthcare, or better wages, affordable housing, and so on.

Honestly this is a bit similar to charges leveled at black communities about ‘why don’t the protest the crime in their own neighborhoods’
They do ALL OF THE TIME - it’s just not covered
Kids are on top of all the issues you raise - they don’t necessarily have the sharpest rhetoric, but none of us do
The difference is there hasn’t been an inciting event nor a clear ‘antagonist’

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

 

[Saintman2884]

The British were internationally recognized as controlling that territory after the fall of the Ottoman Empire. In 1947, the UN partitioned the territory and it was the Arabs that refused to acknowledge it and the first recognized action was terrorist activities against Jewish people on November 30th, 1947 (the day after the UN mandate vote).

As soon as the British withdrew their forces in accordance to the mandate (May 16th, 1948), the combined forces of Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon attacked. The next major conflict was the Suez Crisis in 1956 which occurred due to the president of Egypt seizing the Suez Canal which was actually owned by England and France. This was done as an attack on Israeli shipping.

In the precursor to the 1967 6-Day War, Syria was bombarding Jewish settlements and President Nasser ran the UN peacekeeping force out.

Once again, I do not condone many of the things that Israel has done, but acting like this is all on Israel is ridiculous and not backed up by history. Who started the Yom Kippur War of 1973? As far as the history of the Palestinian State, this is a quote from former PLO leader Zuheir Mohsen in March, 1977: "The Palestinian people does not exist … there is no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians, and Lebanese", though Palestinian identity would be emphasized for political reasons.

The Suez Canal Crisis was partly, if not mostly, exacerbated by Nasser's taking of the British-French controlled Canal Zone but British PM Anthony Eden took far too long in crafting an effective, retaliatory military response along with the French to re-take the Canal Zone months after the seizure and international opinion favorable to him had faded and the US and USSR were advising caution and suggesting Nasser's actions were sort of a fata accompli.

In fact, what essentially stopped further British military actions in Suez was Eisenhower threatening to take away or cut important credit bonds that U.S. had been steadily supplying post-war British economy and was sort of keeping UK economy afloat. Britain, after WWII, was essentially bankrupt and could no longer afford to maintain and provide for its large, international empire and also fund a very expensive, costly post-WWII elaborate welfare state (creation of the NHS, nationalization of some major corporations, railways, postal services, essential services) but UK still remained tied to post-war rationing, power cuts, blackouts, infrastructural decay well into the 1950's. National Service wasnt revoked until the early 1960's. If US had cut off these bonds, UK economy would have been severely affected. The Suez Canal crisis pretty much was the nadir that signalled the permanent decline of U.K. as a superpower and as a second-or-third rate power.

The core "roots" of the Isreali/Palestinian quagmire goes back to the mid-late 19th century when Russian, German, Eastern European Sephardic Jewish ex-pats, political refugees, radicals, merchants began buying plots of land, and started setting up farms, communities, kibbutkes, small towns in then-Ottoman controlled Palestine and to escape more repressive, rising political and racial anti-semitism in Tsarist Russia, Germany, France, and other regions of then-Ottoman controlled Balkans. These number of immigrants rose substantially by the early 20th century.

 

[Dago]

The Suez Canal Crisis was partly, if not mostly, exacerbated by Nasser's taking of the British-French controlled Canal Zone but British PM Anthony Eden took far too long in crafting an effective, retaliatory military response along with the French to re-take the Canal Zone months after the seizure and international opinion favorable to him had faded and the US and USSR were advising caution and suggesting Nasser's actions were sort of a fata accompli.

In fact, what essentially stopped further British military actions in Suez was Eisenhower threatening to take away or cut important credit bonds that U.S. had been steadily supplying post-war British economy and was sort of keeping UK economy afloat. Britain, after WWII, was essentially bankrupt and could no longer afford to maintain and provide for its large, international empire and also fund a very expensive, costly post-WWII elaborate welfare state (creation of the NHS, nationalization of some major corporations, railways, postal services, essential services) but UK still remained tied to post-war rationing, power cuts, blackouts, infrastructural decay well into the 1950's. National Service wasnt revoked until the early 1960's. If US had cut off these bonds, UK economy would have been severely affected. The Suez Canal crisis pretty much was the nadir that signalled the permanent decline of U.K. as a superpower and as a second-or-third rate power.

The core "roots" of the Isreali/Palestinian quagmire goes back to the mid-late 19th century when Russian, German, Eastern European Sephardic Jewish ex-pats, political refugees, radicals, merchants began buying plots of land, and started setting up farms, communities, kibbutkes, small towns in then-Ottoman controlled Palestine and to escape more repressive, rising political and racial anti-semitism in Tsarist Russia, Germany, France, and other regions of then-Ottoman controlled Balkans. These number of immigrants rose substantially by the early 20th century.

That's kind of my point. The international community wrings their hands and acts like it cares but they are the ones who not only created but encouraged what we have today

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

That's kind of my point. The international community wrings their hands and acts like it cares but they are the ones who not only created but encouraged what we have today

I think it might be different facets of the international community
Or at least parts of the intl community that looks deeper than white hat/black hat narratives

 

[Dago]

I think it might be different facets of the international community
Or at least parts of the intl community that looks deeper than white hat/black hat narratives

There is plenty of blame to go around....problem is that most who have an opinion don't even know anything of the history of the region.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

There is plenty of blame to go around....problem is that most who have an opinion don't even know anything of the history of the region.

Do you need a PhD in Asian history to know that what the Chinese govt is doing to the Uyghurs isn’t cool?

 

[Dago]

Do you need a PhD in Asian history to know that what the Chinese govt is doing to the Uyghurs isn’t cool?

Do the Uyghurs have a recent history of attacking and killing Chinese people? If not it isn't a valid comparison