Reopen the Kent State file and charge the appropriate guardsmen with murder... (1 Viewer)

[guidomerkinsrules]

About the pro-Palestine/Hamas protests, I have to say, I am curious about the "why now?" and "why this one?"... Gaza's been Gaza for over half a century. There are many other places around the world where life is cheap and humans rights are abused. Genocide in Africa, slavery in the M.E., women's rights (or lack thereof), etc...

I'd like to think, if the U.S. were attacked like Israel was attacked, the overwhelming majority of U.S. citizens would approve of swift and severe retaliation against the perpetrators and their accomplices.

As for Kent State... it's been too long.

Why does it matter?
Nike got hit with the slave labor charge and not the others
Harvey Weinstein gets hit with charges on actions that other producers have done
George Floyd and not dozens/hundreds of others
Should there be more outrage in general? Of course
That should not be a mitigating factor when outrage is expressed

Universities should be held to account for all of their unethical investments - doesn’t mean that holding them to account now is unnecessary

And we were attacked- we did respond
And just like Israel we did took our vengeance out on the wrong people

 

[Dago]

Why does it matter?
Nike got hit with the slave labor charge and not the others
Harvey Weinstein gets hit with charges on actions that other producers have done
George Floyd and not dozens/hundreds of others
Should there be more outrage in general? Of course
That should not be a mitigating factor when outrage is expressed

Universities should be held to account for all of their unethical investments - doesn’t mean that holding them to account now is unnecessary

And we were attacked- we did respond
And just like Israel we did took our vengeance out on the wrong people

Are you saying that Palestinians haven't supported Hamas both before, during, and after the attacks by a large margin?

 

[Saintman2884]

The Vietnam War protestors had bad actors that spit on veterans. At the time, those few bad actors were used to taint the whole protest movement by people who opposed the reason for the protests.

Exactly like today.

The anti-Vietnam War protesters who were spitting on returning veterans either during or after the war itself wasn't on the same scale and scope or consistency as reported anti-Semitic attacks, slurs, insults, threats or insinuations that force Jewish students at all these Ivy League universities to relocate to nearby hotels because they felt unwelcome.

The flagrant disrespect shown towards to Vietnam veterans by hippies/counter-culture types or ordinary Americans by spitting on them was low-scale, and more random then serious acts of actual anti-Semitic behavior or actions here on college campuses.

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

The anti-Vietnam War protesters who were spitting on returning veterans either during or after the war itself wasn't on the same scale and scope or consistency as reported anti-Semitic attacks, slurs, insults, threats or insinuations that force Jewish students at all these Ivy League universities to relocate to nearby hotels because they felt unwelcome.

The flagrant disrespect shown towards to Vietnam veterans by hippies/counter-culture types or ordinary Americans by spitting on them was low-scale, and more random then serious acts of actual anti-Semitic behavior or actions here on college campuses.

We'll just have to disagree about that.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Are you saying that Palestinians haven't supported Hamas both before, during, and after the attacks by a large margin?

Italian neighborhoods in NYC back in the day ‘supported’ the mafia way more than police
Probably for very similar reasons

 

[Saintman2884]

Italian neighborhoods in NYC back in the day ‘supported’ the mafia way more than police
Probably for very similar reasons

Guido, I understand the historical analogies and its highly accurate, but that doesn't exactly leave or put a lot of Italian-Americans in the late 19th/early 20th centuries in a favorable moral/ethical light. Many ordinary Southerners supported the KKK and its vigilante, race-based violence, intimidation or threats or political violence against African-Americans, labor unions, various left-wing groups or associations for over a century because they wanted to preserve some vestige of the pre-Civil War social-caste hierarchal system and many Southerners still backed or supported segregationist politicians in the 1960's and 70's when federal rulings, FBI subversion, and laws were passed undoing decades-old Jim Crow laws. That doesn't leave many Southerners across the old Confederacy in a very favorable light, historically.

And as bad, heinous, and horrific the Mafia were and still are, they pale in comparison to an idealogically fringe radical, misgyonist, sexist and anti-Semitic fundamentalist Islamic terrorist group that throws homosexuals off of rooftops, views women as servile, almost slave-like roles, won't allow them to go to university, get academic degrees, get good jobs and wear head-to-feet chardras or veils and are fined or beaten by morality police like in Iran if they break these societal conventions of Shariah law.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Guido, I understand the historical analogies and its highly accurate, but that doesn't exactly leave or put a lot of Italian-Americans in the late 19th/early 20th centuries in a favorable moral/ethical light.

And as bad, heinous, and horrific the Mafia were and still are, they pale in comparison to an idealogically fringe radical, misgyonist, sexist and anti-Semitic fundamentalist Islamic terrorist group that throws homosexuals off of rooftops, views women as servile, almost slave-like roles, won't allow them to go to university, get academic degrees, get good jobs and wear hear-to-feet chardras or veils and are fined or beaten by morality police like in Iran if they break these societal conventions of Shariah law.

It wasn’t an attempt to cape for the mafia (I could have said drug lord in any besieged inner city), but to contextualize why Palestinians might ‘support’ hamas

 

[SystemShock]

Why does it matter?
Nike got hit with the slave labor charge and not the others
Harvey Weinstein gets hit with charges on actions that other producers have done
George Floyd and not dozens/hundreds of others

Nike is not the only one who has been accused of using child labor; George Floyd is not the only catalyst for protests and/or riots; Weinstein, I guess if we think the casting couch is indeed a common practice, then it would be pertinent to ask, "why only him and not the others?"

Should there be more outrage in general? Of course
That should not be a mitigating factor when outrage is expressed

Universities should be held to account for all of their unethical investments - doesn’t mean that holding them to account now is unnecessary

Is not a question of being necessary or unnecessary. Just why this particular outrage and why now?

As for unethical investments and the demands for universities to divest, there's irony in that... divesting of investments in companies with any ties to Israel, whatever those ties may be, means universities lose any say-so they have on he direction those companies could take. And surely that stock will be picked up by someone else who's not going to care... just to mention one, Google is not going to go out of business because universities sell all of their Google stock. It may be a "moral" victory for those protesting wearing shemaghs like terrorists do (although I have not caught any image of women wearing burkas) but it does nothing to solve the problem.

And we were attacked- we did respond
And just like Israel we did took our vengeance out on the wrong people

I thought it was Hamas that attacked Israel from Gaza?

 

[Dago]

Italian neighborhoods in NYC back in the day ‘supported’ the mafia way more than police
Probably for very similar reasons

How about we stick to verifiable facts instead of pretending we can read minds. Hamas has been on the attack since they were voted into power by the Palestinians...attacking civilians and digging tunnels into Israel in order to facilitate future terror attacks. Pretty much the same thing you are saying Israel is wrong for (killing civilians)

If I elect a leader/leaders who are targeting civilians and continue to support them during and after it, I bear responsibility for the outcomes. I have stated in the other thread that nobody is right in this so I am not condoning the killing of palestinian civilians by Israel but I am not going to be a hypocrite and point the finger at one while supporting a group doing the same damned thing

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

Is not a question of being necessary or unnecessary. Just why this particular outrage and why now?

Well, these kids were little kids just a few years ago.

This is also easily the worst thing that Israel has done in a generation.

I think the question is really why are these kids protesting.

 

[Dago]

Well, these kids were little kids just a few years ago.

This is also easily the worst thing that Israel has done in a generation.

I think the question is really why are these kids protesting.

Agreed

 

[jboss]

Well, these kids were little kids just a few years ago.

This is also easily the worst thing that Israel has done in a generation.

I think the question is really why are these kids protesting.

This whole why are they protesting narrative is getting pretty old. Straight from the anti-protest playbook in most instances. The short answer is simply: Israel's response to the October 7th attacks have been egregiously atrocious and everyone knows it.

Do these students know the totality of the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? Of course not. Did the Vietnam protestors know the ins and outs of the conflict? The Iraq/Afghanistan War protestors? The Occupy Wall Street protestors?

Guido touched on this before, which I'm inclined to believe, that being of a certain age you have the energy and vitriol to protest things you know in your heart aint right. And history has shown protests much like this one were very much right to happen.

 

[TulsaSaint]

Are you saying that Palestinians haven't supported Hamas both before, during, and after the attacks by a large margin?

Who cares? Even if their parents got "I LUV HAMAS" tattooed on their butt, does that mean that little boys and girls deserve to be bombed into little pieces while they play?

 

[Dago]

Who cares? Even if their parents got "I LUV HAMAS" tattooed on their butt, does that mean that little boys and girls deserve to be bombed into little pieces while they play?

Well if you bothered to read my posts on the subject, I have clearly stated that neither side is in the right and if anybody is to blame it is England and the UN

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

I don't even really know where to begin in unpacking this whole thing, b/c it's just a mess.

Israel is a military occupying power and has been for 70 years, holding a population without the right to self determination while continuously expanding territory. At various points of their history they have engaged in acts of terrorism, supported ethnic cleansing and so on.

Palestinians at various points in time have embraced terrorism, rejected compromises (Madeleine Albright's quote "The Palestinians never miss a chance to miss a chance"), nuturued anti-semetic beliefs, etc.

I hate the whole both sides trope, but there aren't really great innocent parties at the macro level. Just the daily tragedy of kids getting bombed (whether they are attending a music festival by terrorists or being bombed in their home by F16).

Of course 18-22 year olds are going to protest US involvement in things like this. They're young and passionate and haven't been exposed to all the cynicism that creeps up over a lifetime. I get it. I just don't feel like there's an obvious side to root for here, other than just innocent life -- but to me that means waving all the flags or none of them. That means asking the US to withhold all funding from everyone until they've agreed on a real path forward. At the moment, I don't trust the Israeli government or Palestinian leadership to be honest partners in this.

I wish these kids would also funnel this energy into local issues - like US healthcare, or better wages, affordable housing, and so on.