salary cap hell! (2 Viewers)

[SonOfNOLA]

All that looks like to me is an even deeper hole. With players we won’t be able to get rid of (trade or cut) if they don’t perform. And that many more years of mediocrity or worse before we clean up our finances (multi-year process now) and can actually compete for a championship.

There’s a cost to keeping All-Pros and very productive starters/top 10-15 players at their positions. The only cap hits hindering the team are Jordan and Ramczyk as two declining former star players close to retirement this year and next. We’re getting production out of the rest.

If you aren’t keeping Davis, Hill, McCoy, Ruiz, Granderson, Mathieu, Carr, and Kamara, you’re replacing them with either below average players or draft picks who will also be due for the same big contracts/cap hits that each of those 8 players have.

The team isn’t mediocre because of restructuring at all. We’ve lacked offensive coaching ‘22-‘23 and a viable starting QB in ‘21-‘22. The Saints built Super Bowl contenders and playoff teams primarily from drafts, not cap space or cleared finances. Most of the star players on all those playoff teams were on cheap rookie deals or cheap vet deals before they were due for significant raises or top 5 salaries at their positions.

If you aren’t re-signing your stars and core players who make you a productive team, then you’re recycling rookie deals. You’re letting most of your drafted star players and most star vets walk after their rookie deals and original contracts which doesn’t happen. Teams value good players more than cap space when putting a longterm playoff team together. Core players won’t be temporary midlevel players. The salary cap can always be manipulated to GMs likening every offseason.

 

[Elvis]

Cap hell is a myth when the Saints prove time and time again that cap hell or a huge negative cap # doesn’t stop them from making any signing, roster moves or roster improvement that the team wants to make. Starting offseasons with a large negative cap number is not ideal but it’s not stopping any roster additions from happening.

That is simply incorrect. There are roster moves they cannot make and there is a limit to the number of new players you can bring in when you can't get rid of the old players. There are only 53 spots. It's nice that we all feel warm and fuzzy about Cam and that we're sticking with him because he's been here forever, but he should not be on the roster anymore if we're being honest with ourselves. His contract being repeatedly restructured makes him impossible to cut or trade. We wouldn't keep Taysom to play 37% of snaps if it weren't for the $16.9 million in dead money we'd incur. Would we really pay Ramczyk $17 million base and probably restructure him for cap reasons with that knee if we weren't already in cap hell? These are real world limitations that we overlook when we sign a mid tier player or two and call Loomis a genius, but the roster is getting worse year after year because of these moves.

 

[StudioSaint]

I do see your point but I’d argue that we aren’t a good team anymore. During the good Brees years it made sense imo. Think from 09-11 we were like 37-11 or some such. Then from 17-20 we were very good (49-15) as well. Not so much since then, imo.

I mean are we really a good team and an attractive destination nowadays? Not trying to be a Debbie downer, just don’t think we’re good right now.

Which players do you want the Saints to cut or not res-sign to get under the cap?

The only ways to get under the cap is to either cut players, not re-sign players or restructure players. So it has to be some combination of those things. If you don't do any restructures, then you have to do more cutting and not re-signing players.

 

[SonOfNOLA]

That is simply incorrect. There are roster moves they cannot make and there is a limit to the number of new players you can bring in when you can't get rid of the old players. There are only 53 spots. It's nice that we all feel warm and fuzzy about Cam and that we're sticking with him because he's been here forever, but he should not be on the roster anymore if we're being honest with ourselves. His contract being repeatedly restructured makes him impossible to cut or trade. We wouldn't keep Taysom to play 37% of snaps if it weren't for the $16.9 million in dead money we'd incur. Would we really pay Ramczyk $17 million base and probably restructure him for cap reasons with that knee if we weren't already in cap hell? These are real world limitations that we overlook when we sign a mid tier player or two and call Loomis a genius, but the roster is getting worse year after year because of these moves.

Thats incorrect that there’s roster moves the Saints cannot make. If the Saints needed to cut Taysom, like they will with Michael Thomas, they could post-June 1 release him. They don’t have to because Taysom’s still a very productive player benefiting the team.

When the Saints wanted to land a short term franchise QB, they cleared the space to land Carr on a significant contract.

When they needed to replace Jenkins and Williams at the Safety positions, they made the room to sign two above average-great starters in Mathieu and Maye at significant salaries.

Ramczyk’s cap situation just recently developed as a major issue. And the Saints appear to intend on replacing Ramczyk with either the #14 or #45 picks. The dead cap eventually fades off of the books once he retires. Dead cap and high cap hits comes with extending players who performed at an all-pro level or very high level at the time of their contract extensions. They’re either extended or the team goes through musical chairs at the positions with lesser players.

The Saints can sign a starting OL or pass rusher in FA if necessary. They’ve proven that they’re able to make cap room for any of their intended roster moves at any time.

 

[Zanedavis1]

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[SigFreudianSlip]

Which players do you want the Saints to cut or not res-sign to get under the cap?

The only ways to get under the cap is to either cut players, not re-sign players or restructure players. So it has to be some combination of those things. If you don't do any restructures, then you have to do more cutting and not re-signing players.

I fully understand why they do it, was just saying I don’t think this way of managing the cap is the way to go anymore, as I believe our window is closed. And the other poster brought up that we do this to maintain a good team and a good destination, I was just stating that I don’t think we’ve been too good the last few seasons.

 

[dataussie]

Cap hell is a myth when the Saints prove time and time again that cap hell or a huge negative cap # doesn’t stop them from making any signing, roster moves or roster improvement that the team wants to make. Starting offseasons with a large negative cap number is not ideal but it’s not stopping any roster additions from happening.

this is bit of tunnel vision tho. There are plenty of moves we havent been able to make due to our cap.
I highly doubt if we had $$ to splash we wouldn't have addressed things like pass rush this year gone by.
Not to mention the lack of depth in various position groups we have had for a number of years..

It's clear we are hamstrung with our cap situation, suggesting otherwise is putting your head in the sand.

Agree Loomis has proven he can still get around it and make moves if needed, but there are certainly consequences and hits being taken from our cap position. It's absolutely something that needs to be addressed imo.

 

[SonOfNOLA]

this is bit of tunnel vision tho. There are plenty of moves we havent been able to make due to our cap.
I highly doubt if we had $$ to splash we wouldn't have addressed things like pass rush this year gone by.
Not to mention the lack of depth in various position groups we have had for a number of years..

It's clear we are hamstrung with our cap situation, suggesting otherwise is putting your head in the sand.

Agree Loomis has proven he can still get around it and make moves if needed, but there are certainly consequences and hits being taken from our cap position. It's absolutely something that needs to be addressed imo.

Going into the season, Saints pass rush looked crowded at DE on paper. 5 DEs on the roster in Jordan, Granderson, Turner, Kpassagnon, and Foskey.

There were two proven productive players in Grand and Cam. Cam coming off the 8.5 sack season at 33 years old. Grand was projected to have a bigger year on increased snaps and did so. Another vet in Kpassagnon. They expected production out of two other DEs that they invested a 1st and 2nd round pick in the last 3 drafts. They addressed the pass rush with day 1 and day 2 draft picks but the selections haven’t panned out yet.

They’ve cleared room to sign a QB and Safeties to premium salaries. Along with signing complimentary players at RB, DT, and TE. The Saints can make the splash moves if they intend to. The cap doesn’t stop the team from addressing what they want to address after we’ve seen them invest $$ in QB and Safety. They’re selective in how they address positions between the draft and FA.

Historically, the Saints are draft-first when it comes to addressing needs that requires a perceived longterm starter type player. The complimentary vets are signed in FA. Then the 1st and 2nd round picks addresses the important needs while getting a cheaper rookie deal with those projected top prospects at their positions.

 

[saintfan1972]

i think cutting Derek Carr next year is the only real answer. my guess is this will be cam jordan's final year and maybe demario's as well.

If they restructure Carr, he's not getting let go next year. If they don't restructure then maybe.

 

[SweetT]

It’s a 2 way street whether the salary cap is a myth or not. It’s a myth if you have draft capital that you can develop those guys for when big contracts need to come off of the books. It’s not a myth if you are low on draft capital and you have to keep restructuring the same guy’s deals, while having to sign guys via FA. Thats why I’ve always said to stop trading up, throwing picks away.

 

[Yingers70]

There’s a cost to keeping All-Pros and very productive starters/top 10-15 players at their positions. The only cap hits hindering the team are Jordan and Ramczyk as two declining former star players close to retirement this year and next. We’re getting production out of the rest.

If you aren’t keeping Davis, Hill, McCoy, Ruiz, Granderson, Mathieu, Carr, and Kamara, you’re replacing them with either below average players or draft picks who will also be due for the same big contracts/cap hits that each of those 8 players have.

The team isn’t mediocre because of restructuring at all. We’ve lacked offensive coaching ‘22-‘23 and a viable starting QB in ‘21-‘22. The Saints built Super Bowl contenders and playoff teams primarily from drafts, not cap space or cleared finances. Most of the star players on all those playoff teams were on cheap rookie deals or cheap vet deals before they were due for significant raises or top 5 salaries at their positions.

If you aren’t re-signing your stars and core players who make you a productive team, then you’re recycling rookie deals. You’re letting most of your drafted star players and most star vets walk after their rookie deals and original contracts which doesn’t happen. Teams value good players more than cap space when putting a longterm playoff team together. Core players won’t be temporary midlevel players. The salary cap can always be manipulated to GMs likening every offseason.

I disagree, I have no problem paying for top players that deserve it. The pay as you go system is fine. But that isn’t what the Saints have been doing. They paid big signing bonuses and deferring the cap hits. And then they have to restructure more guys and that made them have to restructure even more guys. We start every fiscal year having to restructure millions and millions of $ just get under the cap.

Most of us were fine with it when we had a HOF QB. But we don’t have that now and our roster is old and our fiscal situation gets worse every year.

You can run up the credit cards for a short term attempted gain, but not as long term strategy. It handcuffs us. We didn’t get back to another SB. It’s time to get our fiscal house in order so we can have a realistic hope again.

 

[donato]

It can be a myth. It's definitely not a myth in our situation now. Can't trade players, eating enormous amounts of dead money. Can't resign some guys, can't pursue prime free agents. Unfortunately it will take a few years to remedy IF we choose to do so instead of halfway doing things that neither make us better, nor clears our cap.

 

[SonOfNOLA]

It can be a myth. It's definitely not a myth in our situation now. Can't trade players, eating enormous amounts of dead money. Can't resign some guys, can't pursue prime free agents. Unfortunately it will take a few years to remedy IF we choose to do so instead of halfway doing things that neither make us better, nor clears our cap.

I think trade possibilities are planned a year in advance by the FO while they’re restructuring. They aren’t restructuring players that they may consider trading the following season. They’re pushing salaries of players who they’re committing to and expecting to be productive during the restructure’s cap hit window. I think the FO’s fully aware of the restructure implications beforehand, beyond the immediate cap space.

Lattimore is currently the only player with an option bonus restructure which allows him to be traded before August. By his cap hit converting into an option bonus, his cap hit doesn’t go into effect on our cap until a later date in August. The team he’s being traded to will be responsible for his cap hit if traded before that point. Other players’ restructures could be done the same way as an option bonus if the team wanted to leave a trade possibility open like Lattimore’s.

 

[SonOfNOLA]

Saints haven’t desired a prime free agent in at least a decade while they’ve already invested a 1st-2nd round pick at the position in the most recent drafts.

They can absolutely sign any FA who they want to clear cap space for. They’ve shown that they can by signing Mathieu and Carr to big $ at important positions while beginning the offseasons in deep negative cap.

Making it seem like the Saints can’t make moves due to restructures simply because we don’t like the future consequences doesn’t mean they can’t make significant moves.

They can clear space for any top FA that they want if they haven’t invested premium draft picks into the positions.

 

[Stalwart385]

Salary cap hell is a myth. It’s really not hard at all for the FO to clear 83 million plus additional cap space. The restructures are preplanned every year. Might not be a preferred position to be in but it comes with
re-signing many great players to maintain a good team and attractive destination.

The only two I'm concerned about atm are Ramczyk and Jordan. You can go further down the list and restructure guys like Maye, Saunders, etc to clear the cap without Cam and Ram. Probably have to restructure at least one of them realistically though. They might just do both and clear a ton of space.

Shaheed is the only priority FA. Roach and Yiadom deserve contracts as well.

They'll get it done and have room to maneuver. Might require eating 1 or 2 possibly bad contracts. Nothing too drastic though.