"The Chicken or the Egg" - Pass Rush vs Good coverage? (2 Viewers)

[birdog]

I don't care how good your rush is, a modern day QB will eat a bad secondary alive. QB's have an internal clock, if you can't cover they will get rid of the ball long before the best of rushes get there.

This.....On a few occasions, I have seen the Saints having a pretty good pass rush last year, when the QB threw up a "prayer" pass....which was then caught by the receiver, who had nobody around him for like 10 yds.....

Coverage is almost as important as a good pass rush....both are needed.

 

[CitySaint]

During Greg Williams tenure we have had Defenders with clear runs to the QB so many times and the QB gets the ball off to an wide open receiver, it was ridiculous. Sure, a basic four man pass rush for the Saints doesn't get there but Greg Williams ran overload after overload with little success because players were by NFL standards wide open.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

Negative. The easiest way is disrupting the route with press coverage giving your pass rush time to get to the QB.

Negative would mean im entirely wrong.

Chicken/or the egg is a matter of opinion not right and wrong


If u want to know my thought process


The QB is the man that delivers the ball....effecting him DIRECTLY effects the whole passing game.

Theres only 1 QB....if u have 3 receivers and RB's are counted as receivers then u have to have 4 guys that can press as ur stating.

Well only so many guys line up on the line of scrimmage so that you CAN press them and disrupt the timing.

Someones going to get a free release and if the QB can deliver the ball because he has no one in his face then then ur completion chances just went up.



I understand ur thinking...but its got holes in it if ur basing it off of pressing corners

 

[WhiteWolf]

During Greg Williams tenure we have had Defenders with clear runs to the QB so many times and the QB gets the ball off to an wide open receiver, it was ridiculous. Sure, a basic four man pass rush for the Saints doesn't get there but Greg Williams ran overload after overload with little success because players were by NFL standards wide open.

that AND QBs started doing quick 2-3 step drops and gashing us because we couldn't tackle the guy with the ball. Hell, we STILL can't tackle. we lived by the blitz and died by the blitz.

 

[WhiteWolf]

Negative would mean im entirely wrong.

Chicken/or the egg is a matter of opinion not right and wrong


If u want to know my thought process


The QB is the man that delivers the ball....effecting him DIRECTLY effects the whole passing game.

Theres only 1 QB....if u have 3 receivers and RB's are counted as receivers then u have to have 4 guys that can press as ur stating.

Well only so many guys line up on the line of scrimmage so that you CAN press them and disrupt the timing.

Someones going to get a free release and if the QB can deliver the ball because he has no one in his face then then ur completion chances just went up.



I understand ur thinking...but its got holes in it if ur basing it off of pressing corners

Pressure affects the entire offense. It helps the Safeties by putting them in better position to make plays, helps the LB's with covering TEs, makes QB make split decisions which can end badly for them via a pick or sack...

I'm sticking to my guns and taking a good front than secondary. Don't misinterpret that as I don't like our secondary. Yes, in the grand scheme of things they are all important. But if it was my team to run, I'm improving the front before the back.

 

[Bespoke]

It starts with the Pass Rush, but the coverage can't be complete bums either, or they will get eaten up and down the field on short routes and 1 step, to 3 step drops.

But generally speaking a Great Pass rush will make even average DBs look a lot better, as they will kill a lot of medium to long developing pass routes before they can even get started.

 

[CitySaint]

You improve what you can when you can.

 

[SaintBrad]

Negative would mean im entirely wrong.

Chicken/or the egg is a matter of opinion not right and wrong


If u want to know my thought process


The QB is the man that delivers the ball....effecting him DIRECTLY effects the whole passing game.

Theres only 1 QB....if u have 3 receivers and RB's are counted as receivers then u have to have 4 guys that can press as ur stating.

Well only so many guys line up on the line of scrimmage so that you CAN press them and disrupt the timing.

Someones going to get a free release and if the QB can deliver the ball because he has no one in his face then then ur completion chances just went up.



I understand ur thinking...but its got holes in it if ur basing it off of pressing corners

i see what you mean. But when we discuss, i believe it refers to what we need most. That has to be based off scheme. If we're the niners, and in their division I would agree with you. But we're not. We're in a pass oriented Division.

Furthermore, we haven't any idea what we do or don't have in the front 7. Its possible that our pass rushers become great and out biggest weakness in the front 7 becomes Lofton. The 3-4 switch will be a drastic change and we haven't any idea who it will affect negatively or positively.

We do know about the scheme with our corners. Rob Ryans scheme for the secondary is an island scheme with no help. The same that was Greg Williams in 2010 and 2011 and the same that Rex Ryan uses (who's priority was Cromartie when already having Revis), where we constantly saw QB's throwing the ball within 3 seconds because not Greer, PRob, or Porter could blanket their recievers.

whether its a 3 step drop or not, we have the pass rushers or not, it doesn't matter. If our corners can't blanket recievers for 4 seconds regularly, our pass rush will never get noticed.

 

[WhiteWolf]

I think the topic that we aren't talking about and IS relevant is the fact that we coudn't stop the run. Not being able to stop the run opens up opposing play action which is an area we got torched on too. We had Zero pass rush and couldn't stop the run. that is a recipe for disaster coupled with the fact that we had man DBs in Zone.

 

[Trey W.]

i see what you mean. But when we discuss, i believe it refers to what we need most. That has to be based off scheme. If we're the niners, and in their division I would agree with you. But we're not. We're in a pass oriented Division.

Furthermore, we haven't any idea what we do or don't have in the front 7. Its possible that our pass rushers become great and out biggest weakness in the front 7 becomes Lofton. The 3-4 switch will be a drastic change and we haven't any idea who it will affect negatively or positively.

We do know about the scheme with our corners. Rob Ryans scheme for the secondary is an island scheme with no help. The same that was Greg Williams in 2010 and 2011 and the same that Rex Ryan uses (who's priority was Cromartie when already having Revis), where we constantly saw QB's throwing the ball within 3 seconds because not Greer, PRob, or Porter could blanket their recievers.

whether its a 3 step drop or not, we have the pass rushers or not, it doesn't matter. If our corners can't blanket recievers for 4 seconds regularly, our pass rush will never get noticed.

It didn't help that GW and Spags consistently had our CB's playing 5-10 yards off the WR either. How many times did we have posts on here and Gameday complaining of why is Porter/Robinson/Greer playing 10 yards off the WR? In those cases yes, no pass rush is going to get to the QB that fast when a quick slant/hitch route happens. If you have a really good pass rush it allows the CB's to move up closer knowing they don't have to completely blanket the WR because the front 7 only need a few seconds to get to the QB.

 

[WhiteWolf]

It didn't help that GW and Spags consistently had our CB's playing 5-10 yards off the WR either. How many times did we have posts on here and Gameday complaining of why is Porter/Robinson/Greer playing 10 yards off the WR? In those cases yes, no pass rush is going to get to the QB that fast when a quick slant/hitch route happens. If you have a really good pass rush it allows the CB's to move up closer knowing they don't have to completely blanket the WR because the front 7 only need a few seconds to get to the QB.

Exactly, playing 10 damn yards off the ball and knowing that we have no pass rush, coupled with the fact that we were playing matador in terms of tackling hurt us bad. Get pass rush, start wrapping up and stop the run. That's all I'm asking for.

 

[RiverRat]

It's more like chicken or the hen. You need both.

 

[SaintBrad]

It didn't help that GW and Spags consistently had our CB's playing 5-10 yards off the WR either. How many times did we have posts on here and Gameday complaining of why is Porter/Robinson/Greer playing 10 yards off the WR? In those cases yes, no pass rush is going to get to the QB that fast when a quick slant/hitch route happens. If you have a really good pass rush it allows the CB's to move up closer knowing they don't have to completely blanket the WR because the front 7 only need a few seconds to get to the QB.

incorrect. once again, pay attention to the scheme. Claiborne and Carr did the same thing in Dallas who had no shortage of pass rushers in Dallas. Revis and Cromartie do the same thing with the Jets. Its the Island scheme. They play off the WR because there is no help planned over top. It then becomes the safeties jobs to undercut the deep route and the linebackers in zone coverage job to undercut the short routes (slants)

 

[CaliSaint4Life]

I'd rather had a pass rusher than a good secondary but it's not that black and white either - you have to be realistic.

Here's a couple of scenarios:
-If you have three Revis type players, then count out all of your receivers because they won't catch the ball. That leaves you with 8 players to cover the TE, cover the RB (if he's not in for protection), and rush the passer. That's a win for the defense - it's also extremely unrealistic.
-If you have 4 or 5 good pass rusher and a terrible secondary, then your still going to give up a ton of years.

In an unrealistic world, being able to single cover every eligible receiver is the best case scenario because that leave you with 6 players to rusher the passer with. Realistically, it's easier to find elite pass rusher than it is to find "true" lockdown corners. There are only two lockdown corners in the NFL and multiple elite pass rushers. In today's NFL, you have to start with the guys up front first because it's more realistic .

 

[CitySaint]

Great coverage isn't just about having 1 lock down corner. Having continuity plays a big part. If you have great continuity, smart football players, and outstanding communication you wouldn't necessarily need a "lockdown" corner. A lot goes into coverage and a lot goes into creating a pass rush. I think it's easier to create a pass rush through overloads and other blitzes especially in a 3-4 where the it's hard for a QB to digest where the blitz is coming from and you don't need Reggie White level line play to bring heat in that scenario. I think it's harder to scheme great coverages to confuse QB's and at the same time have your secondary maintain a high level of continuity.