The Fundamental Questions Facing the Saints Organization and Ownership (1 Viewer)

[RJ in Lafayette]

Certainly since Payton's departure, and arguably even a year earlier, these are the questions that the Saints organization and ownership should have been seriously asking and urgently need to address after this season:

1. Are we a contending team--that is, are we a top 10 team that has the potential to go deep in the playoffs?

2. If we are not, are we satisfied simply in being at the present time an average team that has a legitimate chance of playing in a playoff game?

3. If we are not a top 10 NFL team and if our aspirations go beyond fielding an average team at this time, do we have in place the four organizational building blocks necessary for sustained long-term success--general manager, top personnel guy, head coach, and quarterback?

I believe that these are the questions that Gayle Benson and those around her should have been asking when Payton stepped down and again after the 2022 season, and will need to answer after this season. As a few of you know, I have been critical of Mickey Loomis and the organization since 2018 over the organization's philosophy towards the draft and building a football team and especially since Payton departed--that is, the direction the team has taken. The answers to the questions above determine the team's direction.

It appears that the organization (certainly after Payton left) concluded (a) our team can legitimately contend; or (b) though our team may not legitimately contend, we are satisfied with having an average team that playing in the NFC South can make a playoff appearance--that is, a team better, even if only marginally so, than the team we have been watching.

 

[No2DC]

Thanks for posting this. Unfortunately, I think most of us know the answer. No, we are not a top 10 team, and yes our senior leadership is a little too seasoned to engage in a rebuild.
I'm not trying to be funny but who does Gayle have outside of Mickey and the people that Tom knew? Our team was filling the dome during our worst years, so it's improbable the fans or media will apply pressure.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

these are interesting thought experiments - but maybe only that
we as humans maybe put a bit too much stock in logic and control and we as fans certainly do
we could look back on our transition from a top 3 team to a middle of the pack team and assume it's all user error - mediocre drafting, wrong retention and release of FAs, not pulling the rebuild trigger early enough (or at all)
but even with a time portal that would allow us to go back and 'fix' everything we think is broken, there's no promise that it's an actual fix
NE is going through similar issues, Pittsburgh is, Seattle is, et al
every team that was dominant for a decade is mired
an then Lions, Bills, Bengals, Dolphins, et al are ascendant - was it because they made all the right moves? maybe
or is it that chaos is a more powerful force than we're comfortable admitting?
probably that

 

[504gks]

Certainly since Payton's departure, and arguably even a year earlier, these are the questions that the Saints organization and ownership should have been seriously asking and urgently need to address after this season:

1. Are we a contending team--that is, are we a top 10 team that has the potential to go deep in the playoffs?

2. If we are not, are we satisfied simply in being at the present time an average team that has a legitimate chance of playing in a playoff game?

3. If we are not a top 10 NFL team and if our aspirations go beyond fielding an average team at this time, do we have in place the four organizational building blocks necessary for sustained long-term success--general manager, top personnel guy, head coach, and quarterback?

I believe that these are the questions that Gayle Benson and those around her should have been asking when Payton stepped down and again after the 2022 season, and will need to answer after this season. As a few of you know, I have been critical of Mickey Loomis and the organization since 2018 over the organization's philosophy towards the draft and building a football team and especially since Payton departed--that is, the direction the team has taken. The answers to the questions above determine the team's direction.

It appears that the organization (certainly after Payton left) concluded (a) our team can legitimately contend; or (b) though our team may not legitimately contend, we are satisfied with having an average team that playing in the NFC South can make a playoff appearance--that is, a team better, even if only marginally so, than the team we have been watching.

Dont know if the owner is that involved. She owned an interior decorator business in the past.

 

[504gks]

Dont know if the owner is that involved. She owned an interior decorator business in the past.

Hopefully, the guy above Loomis will acknowlrdge a change has to be made

 

[Consigliere]

Good point but it is entirely theoretical. In practice, Gayle has loyalty to her people and to her city, but not the commitment to excellence that you suggest we should seek. The "deciders" are the very building blocks you mention. Their priority to is keep their job after the present season. GMs and coaches tend to keep their jobs when the team is .500 or thereabouts. Future seasons are irrelevant.

 

[fishing4food]

Certainly since Payton's departure, and arguably even a year earlier, these are the questions that the Saints organization and ownership should have been seriously asking and urgently need to address after this season:

1. Are we a contending team--that is, are we a top 10 team that has the potential to go deep in the playoffs?

2. If we are not, are we satisfied simply in being at the present time an average team that has a legitimate chance of playing in a playoff game?

3. If we are not a top 10 NFL team and if our aspirations go beyond fielding an average team at this time, do we have in place the four organizational building blocks necessary for sustained long-term success--general manager, top personnel guy, head coach, and quarterback?

I believe that these are the questions that Gayle Benson and those around her should have been asking when Payton stepped down and again after the 2022 season, and will need to answer after this season. As a few of you know, I have been critical of Mickey Loomis and the organization since 2018 over the organization's philosophy towards the draft and building a football team and especially since Payton departed--that is, the direction the team has taken. The answers to the questions above determine the team's direction.

It appears that the organization (certainly after Payton left) concluded (a) our team can legitimately contend; or (b) though our team may not legitimately contend, we are satisfied with having an average team that playing in the NFC South can make a playoff appearance--that is, a team better, even if only marginally so, than the team we have been watching.

Great questions

I think the model that the organization has used in the past to maintain a winning team has become old/stale. Carrying 80 million over the cap into every year and re-working players contracts causes us to be saddled with these players that can't be traded off because of the dead money against your team. It would be like 65 million in dead money if they were to trade Cam Jordan or Peat (Just an example)

The team has been running the same offensive system for years. Our multiple formations fool no one.

The team waist first round picks on players that are not even close to stepping on a NFL field and facing NFL players.

Biggest take away, we're no longer a top 10 team. The current model Loomis and the General Manager is using has us almost even with the rest of the NFC south mediocre teams.

 

[SWJJ]

The thing is tho, I think Loomis has done a great Job Assembling Talent.

We have a top 5 Defense and LOADS of talent on Offense.

We do NOT need a whole rebuild, we need an offensive identify.

I say fire Pete, Promote Ronald Curry and let's see if he is up to the task and go win a Championship.

 

[Ken-Bob]

Is this a top 10 team? No. The why is a better question, though.

It's easy to place a lot of blame on the OLine, and it would be deserved. However, we've seen patchwork OLines work in the past. Why? I think that would be the coaching staff and the skills of a certain Mr. Brees.

Does the team have top 10 talent? If the OLine were even better than average, I would argue yes. But has the coaching staff utilized that talent? Definitely not.

At the end of the day, the problems do lie with the coaching staff. The Dennis Allen experiment has shown its results and it is not satisfactory. I have trust in Loomis. Loomis has shown in the past that he understands the NFL is a year to year thing. He puts the pieces in place and, if they don't work out, he makes changes - but he is not reactionary nor should he be. I find it unlikely this year can be salvaged. The defense is generally outstanding but the offense lacks imagination and doesn't execute. Some choices that seemed appropriate at the time (kicker) have shown to be incorrect and the staff has not made the requisite adjustments.

Let's look at the kicker situation. Clearly this 3-3 team would be 4-2 with a kicker who can make a chip shot under pressure (Green Bay game). I would also argue that the misses against the Texans put the team in a more worse hole (if Grupe had made both kicks it would have been a 1 point game in the late 4th Q and even a 4 point deficit could have made a difference). In past years, Grupe would have been out after the GB game and would be long gone after the TX game. Yet I'm hearing nothing about tryouts. That is a glaring difference in coaching philosophy, to me.

So, overall, I expect the Saints to end up around .500 at the end of the season and out of the playoffs. Dennis Allen can't pull the trigger on the needed mid-season adjustments. If Loomis does his job the way I expect, I think we'll see a new coaching staff, new philosophy, new kicker, and significantly overhauled OLine next year. Barring a major change in DA's way of doing things, though, this year will finish as a trip down Mediocrity Lane.

 

[SAINTSFAN]

Hopefully, the guy above Loomis will acknowlrdge a change has to be made

Problem is everyone under Gayle has gotten fat and happy and there is minimal accountability. Gayle is probably more concerned about making money and keeping those guys happy. Seems to be becoming a common theme with both of her franchises. Upper management does not appear to be being held accountable for issues. Lauscha and Loomis are a bit comfortable (and Griffin seems to be headed that way).

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Dont know if the owner is that involved. She owned an interior decorator business in the past.

and? oil or cars or tech or tools or hedge funds or real estate or whatever - do any of these presuppose NFL owner acumen?
and Gayle is clearly not stingy - gives to charity, has never seemed to balk at spending either for the saints or pels
i don't see where she would be called out as a bad or even mediocre owner in any way

 

[AARPSaint]

Reluctantly, I think that the model needs to be revised. Once a team misses on a few draft picks, decline is almost inevitable: Davenport, Turner, Penning, others. High draft picks can make teams immediately better or worse.

I also believe that the devaluation of draft picks has precipitated the decline of the team in favor of overpaying aging veterans. The team is now in the awful position of carrying aging players with little possibility of replenishing the team with younger, cheaper players.

This is not a contending team any more. I don't know how good the upcoming draft class will be, but it's clear the the number 1 priority is offensive line. But it's also true that a keystone player at any position can be built around. There are so many weaknesses on this team that almost any high quality drafted player at almost any position would help.

 

[Consigliere]

Gayle is probably more concerned about making money and keeping those guys happy.

Yep. Ref no-call sends Rams to Super Bowl = empty $4B stadium gets filled = more revenue-sharing money for Gayle.

Gayle is happy = Loomis keeps job, and he's happy = Allen keeps job and he's happy = Carlmichael keeps job...

 

[No2DC]

these are interesting thought experiments - but maybe only that
we as humans maybe put a bit too much stock in logic and control and we as fans certainly do
we could look back on our transition from a top 3 team to a middle of the pack team and assume it's all user error - mediocre drafting, wrong retention and release of FAs, not pulling the rebuild trigger early enough (or at all)
but even with a time portal that would allow us to go back and 'fix' everything we think is broken, there's no promise that it's an actual fix
NE is going through similar issues, Pittsburgh is, Seattle is, et al
every team that was dominant for a decade is mired
an then Lions, Bills, Bengals, Dolphins, et al are ascendant - was it because they made all the right moves? maybe
or is it that chaos is a more powerful force than we're comfortable admitting?
probably that

You make a critical point that change does not guarantee success. However, both Pittsburgh and Seattle have been willing to embrace change on fundamental levels. Pitt never promotes within and Carrol has won in several ways and was willing to trade a beloved player to put the team first.
These are moves that I frankly think Gayle and Mickey will not do. Finally, the downside of being a mid-tier team is that you don't get those top 5 picks that yield the dominant players that the Ners amassed during their off years. I would rather try and fail than be satisfied with barely average.

 

[superchuck500]

Certainly since Payton's departure, and arguably even a year earlier, these are the questions that the Saints organization and ownership should have been seriously asking and urgently need to address after this season:

1. Are we a contending team--that is, are we a top 10 team that has the potential to go deep in the playoffs?

2. If we are not, are we satisfied simply in being at the present time an average team that has a legitimate chance of playing in a playoff game?

3. If we are not a top 10 NFL team and if our aspirations go beyond fielding an average team at this time, do we have in place the four organizational building blocks necessary for sustained long-term success--general manager, top personnel guy, head coach, and quarterback?

I believe that these are the questions that Gayle Benson and those around her should have been asking when Payton stepped down and again after the 2022 season, and will need to answer after this season. As a few of you know, I have been critical of Mickey Loomis and the organization since 2018 over the organization's philosophy towards the draft and building a football team and especially since Payton departed--that is, the direction the team has taken. The answers to the questions above determine the team's direction.

It appears that the organization (certainly after Payton left) concluded (a) our team can legitimately contend; or (b) though our team may not legitimately contend, we are satisfied with having an average team that playing in the NFC South can make a playoff appearance--that is, a team better, even if only marginally so, than the team we have been watching.

I think they were asking those questions. And I think the objective is to win a Super Bowl and realistically the way you go about that is to put together the best team (from front office down to ball boy) that you can. But you don't have an unlimited ability to swap out pieces with alternatives that you know will be better - there's no crystal ball and these are human beings, not computer programs, they're not completely predictable. The question was never whether Dennis Allen was a Super Bowl winning coach, the question was whether the team is better off with Dennis Allen or someone else that was reasonably within reach of hiring. The same is true for the quarterback position.

It's easy to strategize about what moves a team needs to theoretically make to get better based known performance. But that's not reality - reality is having to make those specific decisions based on actual alternatives and on unknown future performance.

When Brees retired and Payton left, the strength of this team was defense - and DA was leading that unit, and that unit was and still is the kind of unit that when paired with a competent (not great) offense can win most games. Not retaining DA as HC left him open to take the next HC offer, which would have likely been coming. I think the one glaring mistake was not going out from day 1 of the DA era and getting an established, strong OC. Beyond that, I think it's hard to expect them to base the whole next era on the strength of a defense that can go the playoffs and beyond and hitch it to a rookie QB taken in the middle of the first round.

Some of the calculations have not played out as well as they hoped. But I don't doubt for a second that they're trying to put the best team together that they can.