The Fundamental Questions Facing the Saints Organization and Ownership (1 Viewer)

[guidomerkinsrules]

You make a critical point that change does not guarantee success. However, both Pittsburgh and Seattle have been willing to embrace change on fundamental levels. Pitt never promotes within and Carrol has won in several ways and was willing to trade a beloved player to put the team first.
These are moves that I frankly think Gayle and Mickey will not do. Finally, the downside of being a mid-tier team is that you don't get those top 5 picks that yield the dominant players that the Ners amassed during their off years. I would rather try and fail than be satisfied with barely average.

and they were .500 teams last year and are .500 teams this year
is .500 with fans saying "well, at least they're trying" better than .500 and "keep doing what we're doing"? emotionally maybe, but practically, no

 

[SaintswonSBXLIV]

Certainly since Payton's departure, and arguably even a year earlier, these are the questions that the Saints organization and ownership should have been seriously asking and urgently need to address after this season:

1. Are we a contending team--that is, are we a top 10 team that has the potential to go deep in the playoffs?

2. If we are not, are we satisfied simply in being at the present time an average team that has a legitimate chance of playing in a playoff game?

3. If we are not a top 10 NFL team and if our aspirations go beyond fielding an average team at this time, do we have in place the four organizational building blocks necessary for sustained long-term success--general manager, top personnel guy, head coach, and quarterback?

I believe that these are the questions that Gayle Benson and those around her should have been asking when Payton stepped down and again after the 2022 season, and will need to answer after this season. As a few of you know, I have been critical of Mickey Loomis and the organization since 2018 over the organization's philosophy towards the draft and building a football team and especially since Payton departed--that is, the direction the team has taken. The answers to the questions above determine the team's direction.

It appears that the organization (certainly after Payton left) concluded (a) our team can legitimately contend; or (b) though our team may not legitimately contend, we are satisfied with having an average team that playing in the NFC South can make a playoff appearance--that is, a team better, even if only marginally so, than the team we have been watching.

They were asking those questions. The 2021 team should have made the playoffs despite being decimated by injuries. It took a fluke ending to the Rams v. 9ers game to keep us out. The problem goes back to Dennis Allen not understanding that we needed a real OC and that you cannot win today by being conservative on offense. Those same problems exist today.

 

[Ti Rider]

The thing is tho, I think Loomis has done a great Job Assembling Talent.

We have a top 5 Defense and LOADS of talent on Offense.

We do NOT need a whole rebuild, we need an offensive identify.

I say fire Pete, Promote Ronald Curry and let's see if he is up to the task and go win a Championship.

A few thoughts -

Loomis has been extremely hit or miss on talent - Bresee looks like a hit, Penning looks like a miss. But the failure to retain Trey Hendrickson and drafting Davenport/Turner as replacements set this team back years.

Top 5 D? not according to the stats and scoreboard results. The D can bully weaker teams but also suffer late game collapses. The secondary which appeared to be possibly the best the team has ever fielded has been torched at the worst possible moments. LOADS of talent on Offense? There are three players on Offense that would start on most other NFL teams - Kamara, Olave, and Shaheed (as a KR). That’s it. The entire OL would be backups. Ramczyk‘s play has fallen off a cliff due to chronic injury. McCoy and Ruiz have regressed to barely marginal starters, Penning needs to be traded to a team with better OL coaching to see if there’s anything that can be salvaged. CGM and Jimmy Graham are shells of what they once were. Carr is Andy Dalton, no better, possibly worse. He would be best suited as a backup. He is not a dynamic, takeover and win the game type of QB. He is a “maintain a lead“ game manager. It’s disappointing but to paraphrase the saying - he is what he is.

Firing PC Jr. might help. His Offense scheme is stale and painfully predictable but then be weirdly (and very illogically) super aggressive. Ultimately though the Saints may need to do a total top to bottom housecleaning. From Loomis on down - his “kicking the can down the road” style of cap management has now hamstrung the team into a perpetual mediocrity. Not being able to release or trade older players due to their contracts is now hurting the team.

Sorry this post isn’t optimistic but unfortunately I don’t see a lot of light at the end of this tunnel……

 

[Bayouboy]

I'll be honest, I totally understand the rational and thought process behind handing over the team to DA when Payton stepped down. That decision had the least risk of the whole organization totally bottoming out. You had a strong DC that had NFL head coaching experience (even though not very successful) that all the players knew and respected. All the tools in place with minimal disruption to the team......

But after the first 4-5 games of 2022, it was clear to me the decision to run back with DA was not going to work. The rest of the season confirmed that thought and the last game of the season was the exclamation point for the entire season. If I was ownership or Loomis, I would have cleaned house and started with a new coaching staff in 2023. This season thus far is another exclamation point. With this soft schedule, we are sitting at 0.500 and possess one of the worst offenses in football even though we have playmakers. No one on this board thinks we will be much better than 0.500 after the season is over (even with the easiest schedule I can remember). Unfortunately, the rest of the NFC South is just as bad. This Saints team with a 9-8 record could still win the division. That's actually my fear......the Saints do just enough to win the division and go to the playoffs. If that happens, I think DA is retained (hell, he might be retained if we miss the playoffs).

The current coaching staff will never be champions. I'll go to my grave with that belief and I think this season will prove it.

 

[NatureBoy]

Great thread and thoughts RJ.

I was a proponent of blowing it up, even before Payton left. I was critical of Mickey, and ultimately Gayle. I think she has good intentions but this team doesn’t need a motherly figure, it needs a visionary, a driven leader, and it starts at the very top.

When Tom died, the plan was to keep it together. Gayle was very generous at all levels, doing anything to continue forward in Tom’s absence.

The Sean thing has kind of played out the same way. Let’s stay the course, DA is the guy who can do that for us.

Truth is, you can’t just carry on when the forces that drove you are gone. As crazy as Tom was at times, it was his drive to be a champion that eventually got us there. Though his plan and approach may be dated now, make no mistake, Sean drove the Saints to success on the field, even when the talent he had to work with, didn’t warrant it.

When those forces are gone, you reinvent yourself. In the Saints case, we attempted to reinvent ourselves in the same image as before. Gayle is the new Tom, DA the new Sean and Carr the new Drew. We do it simply by trying to prolong the exact path built by those before us. Surprise, surprise, it’s not working.

Mickey and Pete are still in their familiar roles, and I think it’s fair to believe that they aren’t the drivers and game changers we need.

Yeah I’m being hypocritical. After calling for ownership to make tough decisions, financial responsibility and a tear down (starting with moving on from Mickey), I did what fans do. I bought the hype and romanced the past, mentally annointing Gayle, DA and Carr as the people who could more closely repeat what I knew, was comfortable with, and hopeful for.

Here’s the good news, we have a good core from which to build. New leaders won’t inherit an empty cupboard. The next move is Gayle’s. If she sits on her hands, we are destined for more of the same, if not less.

 

[SystemShock]

The only question they are concerned with:

"Is the money rolling in"?

 

[SystemShock]

and? oil or cars or tech or tools or hedge funds or real estate or whatever - do any of these presuppose NFL owner acumen?

They may not presuppose NFL owner acumen, but they do presuppose a certain type of business acumen.

 

[mikedre]

Dont know if the owner is that involved. She owned an interior decorator business in the past.

Then she should have input on our interior linemen groupings.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

They may not presuppose NFL owner acumen, but they do presuppose a certain type of business acumen.

if the last decade has taught us ANYTHING, it should be that we can infer absolutely zero about the quality/ability of successful business people and that nothing should be assumed about the portability of business acumen from one arena to another

 

[SystemShock]

if the last decade has taught us ANYTHING, it should be that we can infer absolutely zero about the quality/ability of successful business people and that nothing should be assumed about the portability of business acumen from one arena to another

I have no idea what you are talking about, but what I am talking about, is the personality types of people in certain types of businesses. The car business, oil business, those are tough business arenas, that require a level of ruthlessness and strong personality to properly function in those arenas.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I have no idea what you are talking about, but what I am talking about, is the personality types of people in certain types of businesses. The car business, oil business, those are tough business arenas, that require a level of ruthlessness and strong personality to properly function in those arenas.

Which is why the Cowboys have been so successful for the last 3 decades?

 

[SystemShock]

Which is why the Cowboys have been so successful for the last 3 decades?

Then again, football wise, it was Jerry Jones who bought the Cowboys, fired their iconic coach to the horror of everyone, traded their superstar for a slew of picks, and created a dynasty in the 90's that hauled in 3 Lombardis with 2 different coaches.

Then there is the financial success of the Cowboys, which Jones made the most valuable franchise in the NFL, and is still the most valuable NFL franchise, with revenue and operating income twice as much as the next team...

Then there is the shake up in sponsoring revenue that Jones brought about with that Pepsi stunt, which the average fan didn't care about (and most likely don't even remember), that shook the foundations of how the NFL deals with sponsors.

Then there is Jones redefining what an NFL stadium should be.

 

[No2DC]

and they were .500 teams last year and are .500 teams this year
is .500 with fans saying "well, at least they're trying" better than .500 and "keep doing what we're doing"? emotionally maybe, but practically, no

The Seahawks made the playoffs last year and Tomlin has never had a losing season. The point I was making it that neither franchise was afraid of change in coaching (Pitt) or trading key players (Seattle). We are afraid of change.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

The Seahawks made the playoffs last year and Tomlin has never had a losing season. The point I was making it that neither franchise was afraid of change in coaching (Pitt) or trading key players (Seattle). We are afraid of change.

And my point is that that alleged fear (and fear based reaction) is no guarantee of anything

 

[Saint Jack]

Then again, football wise, it was Jerry Jones who bought the Cowboys, fired their iconic coach to the horror of everyone, traded their superstar for a slew of picks, and created a dynasty in the 90's that hauled in 3 Lombardis with 2 different coaches.

Then there is the financial success of the Cowboys, which Jones made the most valuable franchise in the NFL, and is still the most valuable NFL franchise, with revenue and operating income twice as much as the next team...

Then there is the shake up in sponsoring revenue that Jones brought about with that Pepsi stunt, which the average fan didn't care about (and most likely don't even remember), that shook the foundations of how the NFL deals with sponsors.

Then there is Jones redefining what an NFL stadium should be.

Jerry really got lucky that one of his friends turned out to have one of the greatest football minds ever.
Had that turned out like every other coach Jerry has hired, we’d be talking about a fifty year Super Bowl drought for Dallas.