Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (25 Viewers)

[SystemShock]

Those things are also true for males. I am not a great or even good athlete. I'm short and not fast. So I didn't win enough to get scholarships because there were other people who were bigger, stronger, faster, and better athletes. Should my emotional stability be taken into account when deciding who can compete in different sports? Or does it only matter if the person is female? If so, why?

First and foremost, it has to be clarified that what we were previously discussing was females vis-a-vis man-to-woman transgenders, and males vis-a-vis woman-to-man transgenders is a very different dynamic.

In general terms:

For starters, since before homo sapiens walked the Earth, males have recognized and accepted the physical superiority of other males. This is a dynamic that happens in just about all species of mammals.

Females, on the other hand, for the most part of humankind history, have been oppressed, treated as property, used as disposable commodities... Title IX wasn't signed into law that long ago (1972) to afford females something that resembles the same opportunities as males. And many (as I do) feel that males who declare themselves women are infringing on the rights females gained with the Education Amendments of 1972.

The man-to-woman transition requires (well, I guess it can be optional too) that a male downgrade his physical performance.

The woman-to-man transition requires that a female upgrade her physical performance through the usage of steroids. Male or female, the usage of steroids and other PEDs is frowned upon, and very illegal in mostly all of sports.

Should we care about the emotional stability of males who can't perform as well on the playing field? Sure.

Should we allow males that weren't winners in the genetic lottery to pump as much steroids into their muscles as they can so they can compete against bigger, stronger, faster males, so they feel good about themselves? No.
Do you agree or disagree?

And what do we do when less gifted males want to compete in sports?
We make weight classes, age classes, divisions...

Should we allow females to pump as much steroids into their muscles as they can compete against males? No. If you don't allow males to do that, you should not allow females to do that either.
Do you agree or disagree?

 

[SystemShock]

I don't care which side of the issue you are on, if you are making a stink about it, or even care enough to bring up the topic, then you are part of the problem.

Hmmm...

 

[SystemShock]

Ok, so, are transgender people overrepresented in athletic scholarships? Heck, have any transgender people actually won an athletic scholarship?

I don't have the numbers, but, we are talking about an issue that's very recent. Do you want to wait until it is a huge problem and 1000's of females are negatively affected? Would you do something about it then? Or at least speak up against females being negatively affected?

Wasn't Lia Thomas on a scholarship, as a male swimmer? Then after transition, did Thomas still hold the male swimmers' scholarship? Or took away a female scholarship?

Either way, which scenario is fair for the other swimmers?

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

Hmmm...

It isn't happening on a level that makes it a big deal, and the people freaking out about it are the real problem. That is my position from the beginning.

It isn't fair for a trans woman to compete against cis women. That has also been my position since the beginning.

Anyone casting their vote based on which genders can play sports, should never be allowed to vote again, no matter which direction it influences them to vote.

In most cases, these aren't even public organizations making these decisions. It's not really any of our business unless we are involved in whatever organization is making the decision to allow trans women to compete against cis women.

 

[St. Widge]

Should we allow males that weren't winners in the genetic lottery to pump as much steroids into their muscles as they can so they can compete against bigger, stronger, faster males, so they feel good about themselves? No.
Do you agree or disagree?

And what do we do when less gifted males want to compete in sports?
We make weight classes, age classes, divisions...

Should we allow females to pump as much steroids into their muscles as they can compete against males? No. If you don't allow males to do that, you should not allow females to do that either.
Do you agree or disagree?

We should allow anyone to pump whatever they want in their body. It's their body.

And if we make weight classes, age classes, divisions for less gifted males that want to compete in sports, why not just make all sports gender neutral and make divisions?

 

[St. Widge]

I don't have the numbers, but, we are talking about an issue that's very recent. Do you want to wait until it is a huge problem and 1000's of females are negatively affected? Would you do something about it then? Or at least speak up against females being negatively affected?

Are you going to speak up for me because I never got my dream of playing QB for LSU and the Saints?

Why can't women compete the same way men do? Why do you think it's necessary to treat them like they are lesser and can't compete with men?

 

[SystemShock]

We should allow anyone to pump whatever they want in their body. It's their body.

So we were specifically talking about PEDs in sports.
How do you feel about Barry Bonds and Mark McGuire breaking Hank Aaron's record?

But since you shifted the conversation to "whatever", and not just PEDs in sports:

At the height of the COVID epidemic, did you feel the same about people who didn't wear masks, refused to be vaccinated, and willingly attended events that were obvious super-spreader events?

How do you feel about second hand smoke?

I don't care what you pump into your body. But when what you pump into your body affects me, that's a different story, don't you agree?

And if we make weight classes, age classes, divisions for less gifted males that want to compete in sports, why not just make all sports gender neutral and make divisions?

Or why not just make male. female, transgender divisions?

But to answer your question, males will still dominate those divisions, and females will still get the short end of the stick.

And BTW, we do have divisions for less gifted male athletes.

 

[St. Widge]

So we were specifically talking about PEDs in sports.
How do you feel about Barry Bonds and Mark McGuire breaking Hank Aaron's record?

But since you shifted the conversation to "whatever", and not just PEDs in sports:

At the height of the COVID epidemic, did you feel the same about people who didn't wear masks, refused to be vaccinated, and willingly attended events that were obvious super-spreader events?

How do you feel about second hand smoke?

I don't care what you pump into your body. But when what you pump into your body affects me, that's a different story, don't you agree?


Or why not just make male. female, transgender divisions?

But to answer your question, males will still dominate those divisions, and females will still get the short end of the stick.

And BTW, we do have divisions for less gifted male athletes.

I'm fine with Bonds, Sosa, and McGuire going for records and I don't care what they took.

As far as COVID, masks are a completely different issue because wearing masks are about not physically harming others, not really about protecting yourself. It's about what you are putting in someone else's body, not your own body.

And at the height of the pandemic, not taking the vaccine helped to spread the virus which caused physical harm to others. Otherwise, I don't want to take vaccines. You play stupid games, you win stupid prizes.

Second hand smoke also physically harms others so it has nothing to do with this.

What I pump in my body doesn't physically harm you and that's where I draw the line. If I cross that line based on what I put in my body there are criminal and civil penalties.


As far as the rest is concerned, my point is that having gendered divisions is just a product of women being thought of as lesser. There is no reason for them to not compete just like I, you, and every other male has to compete. Sometimes that means you reach a point where you aren't good enough, fast enough, or strong enough. And that happens whether you separate sports by gender or not. Which really means that competing with people of different genders is no more unfair than competing with people of the same gender that are just physically faster, stronger, and better.

 

[DaveXA]

I'm fine with Bonds, Sosa, and McGuire going for records and I don't care what they took.

You should though. PEDs aren't allowed and they do enhance performance beyond what can be gained naturally or by other means. Either they're allowed and all the records are legit, or they're not allowed and some of those records aren't legit. Its really about having a fair playing field.

As far as COVID, masks are a completely different issue because wearing masks are about not physically harming others, not really about protecting yourself. It's about what you are putting in someone else's body, not your own body.

Second hand smoke also physically harms others so it has nothing to do with this.

What I pump in my body doesn't physically harm you and that's where I draw the line. If I cross that line based on what I put in my body there are criminal and civil penalties.

It harms those who compete without taking them. And the reason they don't take them is because it'sagainst the rules. I don't care if it's allowed or not, just make the rules the same for everyone. I'm not a fan of players breaking rules to gain an edge.

As far as the rest is concerned, my point is that having gendered divisions is just a product of women being thought of as lesser. There is no reason for them to not compete just like I, you, and every other male has to compete. Sometimes that means you reach a point where you aren't good enough, fast enough, or strong enough. And that happens whether you separate sports by gender or not. Which really means that competing with people of different genders is no more unfair than competing with people of the same gender that are just physically faster, stronger, and better.

 

[SystemShock]

Are you going to speak up for me because I never got my dream of playing QB for LSU and the Saints?

No.

Why can't women compete the same way men do?

???
Females compete the same way as males.

Why do you think it's necessary to treat them like they are lesser and can't compete with men?

Ha! Love the phrasing of that question.

But the human fact is, males are physically stronger than women; have bigger, denser bones than women, and produce a lot more testosterone than women. Sure, among the world's population, you can find women that could compete with certain men, however, both at the top of their games, no female athlete can compete against a male athlete.

Take Imane Khelif for example (since she's mentioned in this thread). Here's a female with a high level of testosterone production, who won the Olympic gold in boxing at the welterweight division. She probably can beat me in a boxing match (I'm kissing 60).

The gold winner of the male's welterweight division was Asadkhuja Muydinkhujaev.

Do you think Khelif would have a prayer against Muydinkhujaev?

How low in the scale would you have to go to find a male boxer who Khelif can beat? And, do you want to see that fight, as athletic competition, not a circus?

 

[St. Widge]

You should though. PEDs aren't allowed and they do enhance performance beyond what can be gained naturally or by other means. Either they're allowed and all the records are legit, or they're not allowed and some of those records aren't legit. Its really about having a fair playing field.

It harms those who compete without taking them. And the reason they don't take them is because it'sagainst the rules. I don't care if it's allowed or not, just make the rules the same for everyone. I'm not a fan of players breaking rules to gain an edge.

I mean, we are talking about what should be. My point is that there should not be rules against it. Beyond that, I'm really not sure that steroids or HGH really help very much in baseball. Arguably all the guys taking speed in the 1980s were getting a greater advantage than steroids or HGH gives you. Hell the 1986 mets were juiced on speed the entire year that they won the World Series.

And on a broader note, nothing in life is fair. Sports is no different even though we like to think it is.

 

[St. Widge]

But the human fact is, males are physically stronger than women; have bigger, denser bones than women, and produce a lot more testosterone than women. Sure, among the world's population, you can find women that could compete with certain men, however, both at the top of their games, no female athlete can compete against a male athlete.

And some males are physically stronger than other males, they have bigger bones, they have denser bones, and they produce more testosterone than other men. So, what's the difference?

 

[SystemShock]

I'm fine with Bonds, Sosa, and McGuire going for records and I don't care what they took.

So you are ok with cheaters? Really? Are you saying this just to not agree with me or do you really feel that way? Do you feel this way outside sports?

As far as COVID, masks are a completely different issue because wearing masks are about not physically harming others, not really about protecting yourself. It's about what you are putting in someone else's body, not your own body.

Exactly. What you put in your body can affect someone else.

And at the height of the pandemic, not taking the vaccine helped to spread the virus which caused physical harm to others.

Yet again, exactly. What you put in your body affecting others.

Second hand smoke also physically harms others

Correct.

so it has nothing to do with this.

You shifted from PEDs in sports to "whatever you put in your body". Cigarette smoke qualifies as "whatever you put in your body.

What I pump in my body doesn't physically harm you and that's where I draw the line. If I cross that line based on what I put in my body there are criminal and civil penalties.

If you are playing contact sports, could what you put in your body harm me?
What if it harms me financially?

As far as the rest is concerned, my point is that having gendered divisions is just a product of women being thought of as lesser.

It's not "gendered". It's male/female.

And again, in general, biological speaking, females are physically "lesser" than males. That's just a fact of life.

 

[SystemShock]

And on a broader note, nothing in life is fair.

Would you tell that to transgender people?

 

[St. Widge]

So you are ok with cheaters? Really? Are you saying this just to not agree with me or do you really feel that way? Do you feel this way outside sports?


Exactly. What you put in your body can affect someone else.


Yet again, exactly. What you put in your body affecting others.


Correct.


You shifted from PEDs in sports to "whatever you put in your body". Cigarette smoke qualifies as "whatever you put in your body.


If you are playing contact sports, could what you put in your body harm me?
What if it harms me financially?


It's not "gendered". It's male/female.

And again, in general, biological speaking, females are physically "lesser" than males. That's just a fact of life.

I suppose it's all in how you define "cheating". Is it cheating to have better coaching as a kid? Better training? Better food? More opportunities?

I very specifically said physical harm and that financial harm would be covered under civil penalties.

But the real difference between masks, vaccines, and cigarette smoke versus performance enhancing drugs is that you can choose not to compete at the level where those drugs are used or not compete at all. But you can't choose not to live in a world where there is second hand smoke, people not wearing masks, and people not making vaccines.