Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (14 Viewers)

[Madmarsha]

Wasn't the Title IX fight more about having equal access and equal funding more that having a separate but equal space?

Equal access equates to equal space. One of the issues that the Yale women's rowing squad had was that they had no locker rooms onsite at the boathouse to shower and change before getting transported back to campus cold and wet while the men did. In addition to having lower quality equipment.

 

[Madmarsha]

I agree this is essentially impossible to discuss without politics coming up. But I don't anyone thinks you think trans people are evil. And frankly, I don't even really disagree with you that it's not really possible for someone born male to truly become female or vice versa.

Thank you.

But I also am fine if people want to live their life as a gender different than they were born.

I am, too, but that has to be a completely separate issue for the sake of the sports argument. It just does.

But to me, the issue of competitive sports is complex with no easy solutions. But that doesn't mean I think you are evil for disagreeing with me. And I think that is where politics makes this entire issue so polarizing.

See, I think it is easy. Does this mean that it's going to be upset some transwomen? Yep. But why do their desires supersede the rights of the female athlete to have their space that they are entitled to? How is that fair?

 

[St. Widge]

Equal access equates to equal space. One of the issues that the Yale women's rowing squad was that they had no locker rooms onsite at the boathouse to shower and change before getting transported back to campus cold and wet while the men did in addition to having lower quality equipment.

I mean but that's really about equal funding to build facilities and equal treatment to male athletes. Maybe I'm wrong, but I never thought female athletes wanted a separate place and that it was more that they wanted the same opportunities that male athletes had.

I mean to be blunt, black people in this country were once given a separate space, but I don't think any of us thought that was real equality.

 

[Madmarsha]

I mean but that's really about equal funding to build facilities and equal treatment to male athletes. Maybe I'm wrong, but I never thought female athletes wanted a separate place and that it was more that they wanted the same opportunities that male athletes had.

Well, I guess they could have pushed their way into the men's locker room at the boathouse and started showering but, clearly, they wanted a women's locker room. AKA, a separate place.

I mean to be blunt, black people in this country were once given a separate space, but I don't think any of us thought that was real equality.

Oh, man, now you're bringing Jim Crow Laws into this. That'll make this go super smoothly now.

 

[St. Widge]

Thank you.




I am, too, but that has to be a completely separate issue for the sake of the sports argument. It just does.


See, I think it is easy. Does this mean that it's going to be upset some transwomen? Yep. But why do their desires supersede the rights of the female athlete to have their space that they are entitled to? How is that fair?

In the end, I think you have competing rights. You have female athletes that want fair competition and on the other side you have trans women that want to compete as women.

There are many times where there are competing rights and we have to weigh those rights against each other. And the majority can't always win because sometimes the right of the minority are important enough to protect even if it is at some cost to the majority. I think weighing those rights and the value of those rights is a difficult thing to do in this situation and I don't know what the answer is. Either we have to be unfair to one group or the other or we have to be unfair to both groups.

 

[Dago]

I don't.

Then you wouldn't think that it was just one side

 

[kcirdor]

trans compete with trans .
females compete with females.
males compete with males.

Not political. its 100% competitive fairness. They test for performance enhancing drugs all the time. and I'm out. no need to get caught in saying the same thing over and over.

 

[St. Widge]

Well, I guess they could have pushed their way into the men's locker room at the boathouse and started showering but, clearly, they wanted a women's locker room. AKA, a separate place.


Oh, man, now you're bringing Jim Crow Laws into this. That'll make this go super smoothly now.

I get that female athletes literally wanted a locker room where they can change clothes, shower, etc. without having to deal with men and that was as good as what the men have. I'm just saying that I think at the core of that was to be treated equally as athletes and to have the same opportunities, which means funding.

I guess I'm just not sure that wanting a separate place to change clothes and shower is the same thing as wanting to participate in sports that are separate from men's sports. Honestly, I know a few girls that wanted to play baseball and football instead of softball and soccer. And one of them managed to do it. Those girls probably wanted a separate place to change, but they wanted to compete on the same field and in the same sports as the boys.

 

[St. Widge]

Then you wouldn't think that it was just one side

Both sides are running ads on national TV about funding trans surgeries?

 

[kcirdor]

but they wanted to compete on the same field and in the same sports as the boys.

that is a completely different thing all together... those girls don't have a natural steroids in their scrotum.

 

[Dago]

In the end, I think you have competing rights. You have female athletes that want fair competition and on the other side you have trans women that want to compete as women.

There are many times where there are competing rights and we have to weigh those rights against each other. And the majority can't always win because sometimes the right of the minority are important enough to protect even if it is at some cost to the majority. I think weighing those rights and the value of those rights is a difficult thing to do in this situation and I don't know what the answer is. Either we have to be unfair to one group or the other or we have to be unfair to both groups.

This is well said.

However, I disagree with disregarding the majority for the sole reason of them being the majority

 

[Dago]

Both sides are running ads on national TV about funding trans surgeries?

No....what I said is that both sides choose hot button topics and blow them out of proportion with rhetoric that can lead to negative consequences. Unfortunately, the vast majority of people in this country accept it when it is done in support of a subject they agree with.

We have a lot of talk in this country about morality and not enough about principles IMO

 

[Madmarsha]

In the end, I think you have competing rights. You have female athletes that want fair competition and on the other side you have trans women that want to compete as women.

That's what Title IX, in my opinion, did was, obsensibly at least, solve those competing rights of sexual discrimination between men's and women's opportunities with what a "man" was and what a "woman" meant not in doubt. Now, 50 plus years on, we seek to change those definitions. I am simply unwilling to say that a transwoman is the same as me, a biological woman. My unwillingness to be forced to change that opinion does not make me a bigot and does not mean I think I have a right to tell a transwoman she can't "identify" as a woman as that does not affect me either directly or indirectly.

There are many times where there are competing rights and we have to weigh those rights against each other. And the majority can't always win because sometimes the right of the minority are important enough to protect even if it is at some cost to the majority. I think weighing those rights and the value of those rights is a difficult thing to do in this situation and I don't know what the answer is. Either we have to be unfair to one group or the other or we have to be unfair to both groups.

See, in this instant situation, I simply don't think a transwoman does have the RIGHT to compete against a biological woman. They are in some situations being AFFORDED that privilege. Once, again, I am not going to budge and agree with you here. I'm just not. Because, in my opinion, it would be requiring me to believe something I do not believe. I am unwilling to do that. In this cause, I am going to be militant.

 

[Madmarsha]

trans compete with trans .

But they simply don't want to do that. One side is going to have to budge and neither is. I have the vagina. I win.

 

[Madmarsha]

that is a completely different thing all together... those girls don't have a natural steroids in their scrotum.

Hey, don't speak for my scrotum, buddy.

ETA: Said the biological woman who just unequivocally stated she has a vagina