Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (12 Viewers)

[Madmarsha]

I don't think you are a bigot and I'm not saying you need to change your opinion. I'm good with people disagreeing with me.

I appreciate that. I think we're doing okay here, huh?

Maybe trans women have a right to compete, but maybe it's not against women who don't want to compete with them.

I think that's all anyone is saying. It so often gets wrongly interpreted as though we're saying, No, YOU can't play the reindeer games. And that's just not it at all. But we are saying, um, no, Moose, you can't play the Reindeer games because you are generally larger and stronger. You go play with the other moose.

But I also think that it may be something that has to be done on a case by case basis depending on things like testosterone levels and maybe even subjective decisions based on body structure and body development.

IMO, that's way overcomplicating it.

 

[Madmarsha]

I mean either they don't have them or they don't produce testosterone. I don't think whether they produce semen is really relevant in this situation, but you may disagree.

I was just making fun of the earlier argument on this thread about what a fully functioning penis is and then people started watching you tube videos which I haven't searched for yet.

 

[St. Widge]

I'd be willing to bet if they weren't getting bigger or stronger during puberty... then they won't be competing in sports beyond high school.

and for the .00001 percent of the population that is intersexed that is a completely different situation.

Maybe. But I like to go on more than what I'm willing to bet on when deciding on telling someone they don't have a right to do something.

 

[kcirdor]

Maybe. But I like to go on more than what I'm willing to bet on when deciding on telling someone they don't have a right to do something.

your straw-tran "gotcha" is not an athlete.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

And again....maybe it wouldn't be such a big issue if science and these women weren't being ignored.

Also let's not pretend that only one side does this....starts to make it sound ideologically driven as well

The argument here is a matter of scale (and perspective)
There is no possible way this issue occurs enough to justify the amount of political media attention it is getting- it’s not even a teacup - it’s a tempest in a thimble

 

[Madmarsha]

The argument here is a matter of scale (and perspective)
There is no possible way this issue occurs enough to justify the amount of political media attention it is getting- it’s not even a teacup - it’s a tempest in a thimble

I vehemently disagree. That one girl for whom it's very, very, very personal it's a very big deal. But, it's not just that one girl. And even if it was, asking her to stay silent? Which, they did. Is very, very, very, very, very, very wrong.

 

[St. Widge]

I appreciate that. I think we're doing okay here, huh?


I think that's all anyone is saying. It so often gets wrongly interpreted as though we're saying, No, YOU can't play the reindeer games. And that's just not it at all.


IMO, that's way overcomplicating it.

I think we are doing okay. And it wouldn't be the first time that I overcomplicated something. I have a lot of conflicting thoughts and feelings on this issue. So I don't think it's necessarily for people to hold different opinions on this even if I disagree with some of those opinions. I think most people are not truly hateful about this. But I do think there is rhetoric out there trying to incite some hate.

And as I mentioned previously, some of this is somewhat personal and emotional to me since my niece married a trans man. I'm not going to lie and say I'm totally comfortable with him, that I truly believe he can become a he, or that I don't sometimes slip up and call him her. But, I have no problem welcoming him as a member of the family or calling him whatever he wants to be called. I treat him no different than any other member of the family. In the end, it's their life, they can choose to live it how they want, and do whatever makes them happy. But, I'd be lying if I said I didn't have some fear for my niece's safety given the current emotions and rhetoric surrounding trans men.

I also get that while some people don't think that trans women should compete against biological women it doesn't mean that the source of that opinion is hate. But, I'd be naive if I thought that hate didn't exist is some people.

 

[St. Widge]

I was just making fun of the earlier argument on this thread about what a fully functioning penis is and then people started watching you tube videos which I haven't searched for yet.

Safe to say I'm not watching any surgeries on YouTube. I really don't like to see blood.

 

[St. Widge]

your straw-tran "gotcha" is not an athlete.

It wasn't a gotcha Roderick. Nor was it a strawman. I know you don't like nuance. But there is nuance here IMO.

My only point is that there are some trans women who aren't physically bigger than women who are elite athletes, don't have bigger muscles, and don't have more testosterone. So, if they want to compete with women, is that unfair? You don't think many in that situation would want to do that and that may be true, but I don't think there are many trans women in general that want to compete in competitive sports, but here we are talking about it.

 

[kcirdor]

Sure, Jameses. The person you described is not an athlete.

post edited response: yes. it is unfair if the females they are competing against believe it to be so. If there is a league that allows it and everyone collectively bargains it to be allowed. I have no issues with it but in the mean time... body dis morphia is not a justification to compete in women's sports. Nuance can not govern competition. We can't make special rules for every individual. there is no testosterone levels leagues in existence... maybe we can start one.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

Not going to go round and round. Women fought and fought damn hard for Title IX to have their own space -- both literally and figuratively -- in sports only to be told 50 years later that they may not have their own space to compete once someone who is a still intact male decides to identify as a female and that this means they have to be allowed to compete as such. And not only that, that they are sometimes told they have no voice in the matter -- yes, because of politics -- lest THEY possibly be held to some sanction.

When industrial pollution became a big concern, oil companies created the Keep America Beautiful to show people a crying Indian thought the problem was mainly individuals littering

When African Americans were pushing for voting rights there was a swift over policing of the inner city wrapped up in a ‘war on crime’ cape

When ozone loss became a big worry, aerosol cans became a huge issue

Now that body autonomy rights are being stripped across the country, all of a sudden trans athletes are a national crisis

I’m not there’s a pattern
But there’s a pattern

 

[SystemShock]

it's not 'just' a political trick but it's undoubtedly a political trick - something fanned from a tiny fraction of an issue into a huge social conflagration that has nothing to do with science or the effected

Can't I be concerned about both? And I don't think that everyone that has an issue with trans women competing in women's sports hate trans people. I'm sure many, if not most don't. But, it's naive to believe that a lot of the attention this is getting is not related to something that is about to happen this November.

Maybe in the U.S. But the world is much bigger than just the U.S.

 

[SystemShock]

Wasn't the Title IX fight more about having equal access and equal funding more that having a separate but equal space?

When it comes to sports competition, as it refers to males and females, you can't have equal access without separate space. Without separate space, there would be no women sports.

 

[St. Widge]

Sure, Jameses. The person you described is not an athlete.

post edited response: yes. it is unfair if the females they are competing against believe it to be so. If there is a league that allows it and everyone collectively bargains it to be allowed. I have no issues with it but in the mean time... body dis morphia is not a justification to compete in women's sports. Nuance can not govern competition. We can't make special rules for every individual. there is no testosterone levels leagues in existence... maybe we can start one.

Don't they already test for things like testosterone levels to look for people using performance enhancing drugs?

 

[Madmarsha]

When industrial pollution became a big concern, oil companies created the Keep America Beautiful to show people a crying Indian thought the problem was mainly individuals littering

When African Americans were pushing for voting rights there was a swift over policing of the inner city wrapped up in a ‘war on crime’ cape

When ozone loss became a big worry, aerosol cans became a huge issue

Now that body autonomy rights are being stripped across the country, all of a sudden trans athletes are a national crisis

I’m not there’s a pattern
But there’s a pattern

What the hell does any of that have to do with transathletes or Title IX?