We may never see this Again when it comes to Qbs (3 Viewers)

[faceman]

Panthers dline has a couple really good players but then nothing. Not a good recipe for a team that sucks on offense.

I thought both tackles played really well. I thought the play design, spacing and pressing every inch of turf with the running game really helped.

Yeah, Kamara was built for this scheme. He's not an A gap bruiser pete carmichael asked him to be.

Huge improvement in offensive coaching. That's what i wanted to see today

 

[black_floyd]

I think the idea that the 00s/10s were decades of some golden age of never-before-seen QB talent is a thing of fiction. Things like no longer being able to go to the head of the QB when tackling, not being allowed to launch yourself at someone, much stricter enforcement of roughing the passer, being penalized cuz your body fell on the QB when sacking him, targeting penalties, and penalties for hitting a "defenseless" receiver are all things that have massively helped passing numbers get artificially inflated since the mid-00s.

I think the 80s was the beginning of the NFL really having top tier QBs in large numbers. You had an absurd top tier of Montana, Marino, Elway, Fouts, and Moon, followed by very capable guys like Esiason, Danny White, Cunningham, Krieg, Deberg, Anderson, and Kosar.

In the 90s we had Young, Kelly, Aikman, Favre, Warner, Manning, and Bledsoe emerge while Montana still led a new team to the AFC CG and Marino, Elway, and Moon continued to perform well.

Ppl are just quick to lavish praise on modern athletes without taking into account how much they've benefited from advantageous rule changes, being able to study more advanced film and techniques while growing up, and having access to more advanced nutritional supplements and sports medicine technology.

These cats whose careers started after 2000 grew up getting to learn from all of the 80s and 90s greats. The greatest QBs the great 80s QBs got to see were guys like Blanda, Tarkenton, Unitas, Bradshaw, and Griese. Of course there's gonna be a generational advantage due to the 00s/10s QBs getting to study QBs who spent their entire careers in a pass-friendly league. The 80s guys grew up learning from QBs whom were nearly exclusively in run-first offenses with, maybe, the exception of Tarkenton.

 

[faceman]

I think the idea that the 00s/10s were decades of some golden age of never-before-seen QB talent is a thing of fiction. Things like no longer being able to go to the head of the QB when tackling, not being allowed to launch yourself at someone, much stricter enforcement of roughing the passer, being penalized cuz your body fell on the QB when sacking him, targeting penalties, and penalties for hitting a "defenseless" receiver are all things that have massively helped passing numbers get artificially inflated since the mid-00s.

I think the 80s was the beginning of the NFL really having top tier QBs in large numbers. You had an absurd top tier of Montana, Marino, Elway, Fouts, and Moon, followed by very capable guys like Esiason, Danny White, Cunningham, Krieg, Deberg, Anderson, and Kosar.

In the 90s we had Young, Kelly, Aikman, Favre, Warner, Manning, and Bledsoe emerge while Montana still led a new team to the AFC CG and Marino, Elway, and Moon continued to perform well.

Ppl are just quick to lavish praise on modern athletes without taking into account how much they've benefited from advantageous rule changes, being able to study more advanced film and techniques while growing up, and having access to more advanced nutritional supplements and sports medicine technology.

These cats whose careers started after 2000 grew up getting to learn from all of the 80s and 90s greats. The greatest QBs the great 80s QBs got to see were guys like Blanda, Tarkenton, Unitas, Bradshaw, and Griese. Of course there's gonna be a generational advantage due to the 00s/10s QBs getting to study QBs who spent their entire careers in a pass-friendly league. The 80s guys grew up learning from QBs whom were nearly exclusively in run-first offenses with, maybe, the exception of Tarkenton.

Bud Grant was very much a run first HC. He made Chuck Knox look like Air Coryell

 

[bclemms]

I use to play Fantasy alot in the 2000s up to now, never joined a league this year, but I can tell you this. Their was so much more consistency back then compared to today. Today its very hard to build a fantasy team because of so much unknown.

The unknown is there because the last 4-5 years we have really seen imo a huge drop off in really talented players and even QBs. I believe the proof of that is the fact of how bad KC was last year and still able to win a SB. It was due to the fact that most every team they had to go through was equally as bad or worse. That KC team barely beat the majority of the teams put in front of them all year, had to go through Baltimore, Dolphins, and Bills. All 3 of them have big question marks as far as being a contender goes. Heck Cinci went to a SB off Burrow and Chase, their was nothing else there but that.

Its crazy really. It all started when Brady retired.

Another theory I have is technology and it is impacting everything. Training and nutrition improvements across college football leading to more parity. If you look at the training, recovery and film rooms across major college programs you see the same thing you see at the NFL level. The big high school programs have training centers that were are on par with colleges 25 years ago. When everyone gets the same access starting at 14-15 years old it closes the gap from great to mediocre.

We also haven't seen a true freak at WR come out in a long time. We had guys like Moss, Megatron, Julio Jones, etc coming out every 4-5 years for a while there. We lack those big, fast WRs that break defenses.

Of course the RPO and spread offense variants has changed the type of QB coming out of college. I was thinking about this the other day. I don't know if a guy like Brees even gets a scholarship offer to major school. His size alone breaks analytics and scouting programs are now relying heavy on size/weight/athletic ratios at every position. These systems are also wanting speed everywhere. Now those 6'4+ freak wideouts are being turned into TE's in high school and college.

Finally analytics is playing a huge roll. Every team is chasing the same goal and scheme with defenses trying to rapidly catch up. This means players need to be versatile.

I think we'll continue to see skill players get leaner and faster while linemen stay the same size. this happened in basketball much faster. Analytics changed the entire way the NBA is played and rosters are built and did so really fast.

 

[B4YOU]

There’s a gap in talent with the 2019 class of Murray and Jones, 2021 class busting except maybe Lawrence, and 2022 being terrible.

Analogs:
Mahomes = Brady
? = P. Manning
? = Brees
? = Rodgers
Burrow = Luck
Allen = Rothlisberger
Prescott = Romo
Jackson = Vick
Stafford = Stafford = Herbert
Tua? = E. Manning
Cousins = Rivers
Goff = Ryan
Hurts = Wilson = McNabb
Carr = Dalton

Stroud and the 2024 class will have to wait for analogs. The depth of QB talent from 06-21 is tough to match. Burrow could make the leap.

 

[bclemms]

There’s a gap in talent with the 2019 class of Murray and Jones, 2021 class busting except maybe Lawrence, and 2022 being terrible.

Analogs:
Mahomes = Brady
? = P. Manning
? = Brees
? = Rodgers
Burrow = Luck
Allen = Rothlisberger
Prescott = Romo
Jackson = Vick
Stafford = Stafford = Herbert
Tua? = E. Manning
Cousins = Rivers
Goff = Ryan
Hurts = Wilson = McNabb
Carr = Dalton

Stroud and the 2024 class will have to wait for analogs. The depth of QB talent from 06-21 is tough to match. Burrow could make the leap.

Burrow could make the leap. He could have also played his best football, he has not been both available and good for a couple seasons now.

I think Baker Mayfield is making that leap after watching him today. He commanded that offense and was making presnap adjustments in a way I haven't seen other QB's do in some time outside of Mahomes. He scares me and I thought that dude was done. Maybe Cleveland really is that toxic for QB's. Love is another guy if he can shake a couple of bad games a season that could be special. Honestly, he reminds me a lot of Spencer Rattler. His high end games are as good as anyone but struggles with consistency.

I still think the two best QB's in the draft were Daniels in Penix. Daniels is going to have to stay healthy and Washington's receivers got no separation today leading to him running more than he should. That's a bad sign for his longevity but it may be the Bucs secondary was that good. I think when Penix gets a chance he is going to shock a lot of people. He has athletic ability but doesn't rely on it which seems to be that magic place that is winning championships right now. So the two best QB's in this draft may not even come of age for a couple seasons. I just don't see the Caleb Williams thing. He may be as great as everyone claims but I just haven't seen that from him since his Freshman season.

Then you have guys like Trevor Lawrence and Justin Herbert that seemed to have had it figured out but then regressed. I feel like analytics are playing a part there as well. To be great in this league you have to break through, then defenses figure you out and you have to break through again and again in the first 3-4 years. Defensive schemes figure out how to stop players in 3 games. It used to take 3 seasons.

 

[B4YOU]

Burrow could make the leap. He could have also played his best football, he has not been both available and good for a couple seasons now.

I think Baker Mayfield is making that leap after watching him today. He commanded that offense and was making presnap adjustments in a way I haven't seen other QB's do in some time outside of Mahomes. He scares me and I thought that dude was done. Maybe Cleveland really is that toxic for QB's. Love is another guy if he can shake a couple of bad games a season that could be special. Honestly, he reminds me a lot of Spencer Rattler. His high end games are as good as anyone but struggles with consistency.

I still think the two best QB's in the draft were Daniels in Penix. Daniels is going to have to stay healthy and Washington's receivers got no separation today leading to him running more than he should. That's a bad sign for his longevity but it may be the Bucs secondary was that good. I think when Penix gets a chance he is going to shock a lot of people. He has athletic ability but doesn't rely on it which seems to be that magic place that is winning championships right now. So the two best QB's in this draft may not even come of age for a couple seasons. I just don't see the Caleb Williams thing. He may be as great as everyone claims but I just haven't seen that from him since his Freshman season.

Then you have guys like Trevor Lawrence and Justin Herbert that seemed to have had it figured out but then regressed. I feel like analytics are playing a part there as well. To be great in this league you have to break through, then defenses figure you out and you have to break through again and again in the first 3-4 years. Defensive schemes figure out how to stop players in 3 games. It used to take 3 seasons.

Agree. I think Burrow can leap to Rodgers. Baker has a trio of WRs and an understanding of defenses that is worrisome. I purposely left Baker off because saying he is 00/01 Jeff Garcia feels like a slight. He and Tua could both leap.

The movement to 11 personnel on 60% of snaps has changed the game. WRs were ahead of DBs and defenses were behind. Defenses have adjusted the last few years. We are seeing a return to the 12/21 groups, play action, and running. I think the Sam and 225lb box SS might come back.

 

[Treybad]

The league is following college with the athlete at QB... Great to watch... fail when it counts

 

[wwepatriot]

Another theory I have is technology and it is impacting everything. Training and nutrition improvements across college football leading to more parity. If you look at the training, recovery and film rooms across major college programs you see the same thing you see at the NFL level. The big high school programs have training centers that were are on par with colleges 25 years ago. When everyone gets the same access starting at 14-15 years old it closes the gap from great to mediocre.

We also haven't seen a true freak at WR come out in a long time. We had guys like Moss, Megatron, Julio Jones, etc coming out every 4-5 years for a while there. We lack those big, fast WRs that break defenses.

Of course the RPO and spread offense variants has changed the type of QB coming out of college. I was thinking about this the other day. I don't know if a guy like Brees even gets a scholarship offer to major school. His size alone breaks analytics and scouting programs are now relying heavy on size/weight/athletic ratios at every position. These systems are also wanting speed everywhere. Now those 6'4+ freak wideouts are being turned into TE's in high school and college.

Finally analytics is playing a huge roll. Every team is chasing the same goal and scheme with defenses trying to rapidly catch up. This means players need to be versatile.

I think we'll continue to see skill players get leaner and faster while linemen stay the same size. this happened in basketball much faster. Analytics changed the entire way the NBA is played and rosters are built and did so really fast.

Some of it i blame on lack of coaching. Like most coaches today also dont seem as bright as what they once were. Majority of the league right now is getting out smarted by the same 3-4 coaches on a regular basis. Drafts have put good players in bad positions.

Justin Jefferson i think is probably one of the more big freakish WR to come around, but being put in Minnesota only did wonders for a year or so, years ago a JJ would had found his way onto a team with a well established QB. Many players who had an ounce of success is getting traded to a team and then taking steps back, some of them never recovering. Jamaal Williams went from 17 TDs to 1 TD with us last year. Kirk Cousins i believe was only fit at QB for Minny, he was garbage at Washington, and im glad Atl got him because i believe he will be worse there than his last 2 teams.

 

[faceman]

The league is following college with the athlete at QB... Great to watch... fail when it counts

Agreed, I believe the days of the classic drop back passer who plays 15+ years is coming
to an end.

 

[Rouxble]

I would disagree that the age of the QB is over, which somewhat implies that you can win without a good QB. The elite QB's regularly opening seasons with 300-yard games were in their primes later in their careers. We have a lot of young QB's in the league right now, and we're comparing it to an era where the top QB's were putting up record breaking numbers in their 30's. Manning was 37 when he threw for 5,477 yards and 55 TD's, and three of Brees' 5,000-yard seasons were at age 32+ (with one at age 37). Brees also had nine seasons with 30+ TD's from age 30-39, but only one from age 23-29.

In 2015, when the elite four of Brees/Brady/Rodgers/Manning were still starting, the average starter age was 29.3, and 15 starters were 30+ years old.

In 2019, the most recent big year for 300+ yard games (13 total), the average starter age was 29.3, and 16 starters were 30+ years old.

In 2024, the average starter age in week one is 27.6, with only seven starters that are 30+ years old.

In time, I think the new class of top QB's will emerge and establish themselves, but they need more time to develop.

 

[DoubleSaint]

Seems more likely that it’s a degradation in Oline play

And that’s only going to be continue as the pool of OL talent will get smaller and smaller as it becomes more obvious and accepted that playing on the OL makes you far more likely to get CTE than any other position.

 

[saint_drago]

The position definitely seems to be falling back to earth. Even with modern pass happy offenses and rules designed to put up points for fantasy football, I tend to think that the golden era of QBs is over. We're coming off of an era that saw a handful of the best QBs to ever do it all competing at the same time. Theoretically you could watch Manning vs Brady on CBS and flip over to see Brees vs Rodgers on Fox. Then you throw in the generation before them with Montana, Marino, Elway, Young, and forget about it. Favre was a bridge between those two eras and Mahomes is the bridge to the next QB era.

I'm just glad I was around to see all of those greats. Not to mention Jim Kelly who inexplicably led the Bills to four straight Super Bowls without winning one. Not to mention Kurt Warner who went from bagging groceries to leading one of the best offenses we have ever seen. Or Michael Vick who was the most physically gifted player to ever play the position. Or Moon, Aikman, Big Ben, etc. Mahomes will lead the position into the future and I'm sure we'll see some great QB play. Guys will put up big numbers but this does feel like the end of an era.

 

[kwkrnu]

I believe you're right. The talent at the QB position isn't what it used to be. Mobile QBs are great for a few seasons, but once they've run their legs out from under them, they're done. Teams will need to start looking new signal callers a lot more often if this becomes the 'next best thing'. It's been a huge step back imho. There's arm talent in the NFL, but precious few guys I'd put on the 'elite' level of QB play.

 

[sfidc3]

yes Lber's who can't cover are not drafted now. Make them play the run.

Lombardi was right." Football is first and foremost a running game. Always has and will always be "

I think the massive changes to the rules re: DPI, and others that greatly favor throwing the ball led to teams.....throwing the ball more.....

I remember that old saying, I think attributed to Madden, that 3 things can happen when you throw the ball and 2 of them are bad....in that era probably relatively accurate......In today's game it's more like.....

4 things can happen when you throw the ball and one of those things can lead to a 50 yard penalty, often for no good reason.....