With win tomorrow, Dennis Allen will have identical record as Payton through 37 games as Saints head coach (1 Viewer)

[St. Widge]

watch this.

After Payton’s 10-6 season. Did he become a worse coach in 2007 and 2008? Or… was not having a good defense the primary issue and after getting a legit DC things flourished?

So let’s apply the logic to Allen after seeing the results with a new OC.

Did Allen suddenly improve as a coach? Or did he just get an OC?

I think it’s more likely Allen was never a bad coach or bad HC he was just not as lucky as Payton to have a future HOF @ QB at the beginning of his tenure along w/ having the same issue Payton had up until 3G. He didn’t have the right counterpart at OC and no different than Payton it can derail you.

The fact that DA is even in the vicinity of Payton over the same 37 games means he wasn’t nearly as bad as presumed.

I didn't say he was as bad as presumed. In fact much of the criticism wasn't deserved and that has always been my position on DA. But, there were things he clearly needed to work on. And even good and great coaches make mistakes. Payton stuck with Gibbs too long. It was a mistake that almost got him fired. DA stayed with Pete too long and it almost got him fired. Doesn't mean that either was a bad coach at the time, but both had things they needed to improve on like being willing to move on from a coach even if he's a guy you like.

Many good to great coaches have lost jobs from time to time when things didn't go right. Sometimes it's their fault and sometimes it isn't but it happens.

 

[Madmarsha]

But, but Amy Trask said...

Remind me what she said. Was it that she was trashing Dennis Allen?

 

[Madmarsha]

Until the SB all Payton had was that 1st season to his name, followed by two extremely meh seasons b4 his fortune changed after switching from Gary Gibbs to 3G.

If Allen was as bad as the guy who wrote the long paragraph above that I’m not reading, how in the blue cheese hell is Allen about to tie Payton, over the same period of time?

Make it make sense.

Makes sense to me. All the crow people are eating about Derek Carr? I'm about to eat it for Dennis Allen.

 

[los226]

DA’s team is riding high and success can make people relax. Eagles are coming in off an embarrassing loss. We’ll see if DA can match Payton’s record this weekend.

And Payton made it to the NFCCG in his first season with the Saints, so DA having the same record through 37 games means nothing if you look at the details.

 

[NatureBoy]

First of all, nobody is "right" about DA yet. Not the naysayers who believed he failed over his first couple of seasons, nor the sunshine pumpers who are crowning him after a wildly successful first two games of this season. He's 18-18 and in the very early stages of a pivotal season.

Even if you're of the opinion that we're legitimately good/great this season and that our early success will carry forward throughout the rest of the year, the fact is, DA has behaved differently than previous years. Pete Charmichael had zero business being hired as DA's 1st OC. ZERO. We all knew it at the time. He had less than zero business being retained for a 2nd season. Both seasons were predictable, miserable failures and wasted two years of our aging veteran defensive stars' opportunity to play meaningful football in the postseason and to compete for a title. I'm sorry, but getting off to a good start this year doesn't magically wash that away. That's 100% on DA. He mishandled the JW/AD situation. The lack of attention to detail was evident in our team's play. There was an obvious lack of accountability, something that was indirectly vocalized by some of our players. There were the numerous borderline comical sound bytes that paralleled mediocre-at-best performance on the field against two of the easiest schedules I can remember in nearly 40 years watching the NFL. He was in over his head the last two seasons.

To DA's credit, he's been a different dude since the end of last year. Pete was rightfully shown the door. He hired a bright young offensive mind from a proven system. He brought in proven, high-quality assistants to work with our young players on the offensive line. He ran a tough training camp, as we've heard directly from the players. He's called out and challenged players. He's more confident and charismatic this year. We're scouting our opponents better so far, and attacking matchups that favor us. Is it any wonder that we're playing better?

I hope we win the SB this year and DA goes down as one of the great coaches in Saints history. Having said that, we've had every reason to strongly question his capabilities through the first two seasons, because that version of DA simply wasn't cutting it. I like this version much better. Kudos to him for turning the page and being a noticeably better coach thus far.

A different possibility is that he wasn’t responsible for keeping Pete in year one or year two. Mickey had a continuity program. They tried to lighten the blow of losing Payton by selling the snake oil that suggested things could be the same. It was a terrible plan and Mickey set him up to fail. Thankfully Mickey has let him bring in his guys (coaches and players) to combine with the good that he did inherit.

I don’t see DA behaving differently. I do so a coach who finally has his own coaches and players and is enjoying seeing it come together. The defense was always in his corner, on offense he inherited a very difficult situation. The bad outweighed the good. As they say, it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch. He inherited a situation that Sean ran away from.

Sean needed a strong DC to find success. He got a pass when it didn’t work out. Why? It was his guys, why did he get a pass? Oh yeah, he had a HOF QB who could put up 40 points a week.

DA on the other hand needs a strong OC. He didn’t get a pass when that didn’t work out. It wasn’t his guys and he had suspect QBs. His defense still played well, but so what. Its not as flashy as putting up 40 on offense. As a result he was treated horribly by many of our fans. I was embarrassed for our fan base. We’re better than that. We’re smarter than that. Well, at least we should be. DA has been with our organization and has done a very good job for a long time. He deserved better. While I’m critical of Loomis, I’m glad he had the patience and class to give the guy a fair chance after he had to be Mickey’s scapegoat for 2 years.

In Allen I see a coach who has a vision and plan for the team. He pays no attention to noise. He’s busy being a leader, a football coach. Football is in his DNA. Day by day, week by week, season by season, he keeps pushing forward. I’m happy he has this chance to redeem himself from the dumpster fire he inherited in Oakland, where he played scapegoat for a different organization.

 

[St. Widge]

A different possibility is that he wasn’t responsible for keeping Pete in year one or year two. Mickey had a continuity program. They tried to lighten the blow of losing Payton by selling the snake oil that suggested things could be the same. It was a terrible plan and Mickey set him up to fail. Thankfully Mickey has let him bring in his guys (coaches and players) to combine with the good that he did inherit.

The problem with that is that we know that they tried to hire Liam Cohen after DA's first season but he turned the job down and they decided to keep Pete. I find it really hard to believe that Loomis would let him hire Cohen but wouldn't let him hire anyone else.

 

[NatureBoy]

The problem with that is that we know that they tried to hire Liam Cohen after DA's first season but he turned the job down and they decided to keep Pete. I find it really hard to believe that Loomis would let him hire Cohen but wouldn't let him hire anyone else.

Maybe no one wanted the job and Pete was a default that they both had to eat. Year 1 I think is directly on ML.

 

[St. Widge]

Maybe no one wanted the job and Pete was a default that they both had to eat. Year 1 I think is directly on ML.

I highly doubt that. It's just not Mickey's style. He's a pretty hands off GM and he even let Payton keep Gibbs and Vitt longer they he should have.

As far as after year 1, just like last year there were other options after Cohen turned down the job but they chose to go back to Pete.

 

[NatureBoy]

I highly doubt that. It's just not Mickey's style. He's a pretty hands off GM and he even let Payton keep Gibbs and Vitt longer they he should have.

As far as after year 1, just like last year there were other options after Cohen turned down the job but they chose to go back to Pete.

Losing Sean was a big blow to the organization. They had to sell tickets. The easiest way to try and ease concern was to sell the theory that they could keep on keeping on, without Sean, as long as they had his people. They had a continuity theme and weren't about to step outside of their comfort zone at that moment.

Wasn't it reported that Pete didn't want the job and they had to talk him in to it?

 

[DSnfla]

A different possibility is that he wasn’t responsible for keeping Pete in year one or year two. Mickey had a continuity program. They tried to lighten the blow of losing Payton by selling the snake oil that suggested things could be the same. It was a terrible plan and Mickey set him up to fail. Thankfully Mickey has let him bring in his guys (coaches and players) to combine with the good that he did inherit.

I don’t see DA behaving differently. I do so a coach who finally has his own coaches and players and is enjoying seeing it come together. The defense was always in his corner, on offense he inherited a very difficult situation. The bad outweighed the good. As they say, it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch. He inherited a situation that Sean ran away from.

Sean needed a strong DC to find success. He got a pass when it didn’t work out. Why? It was his guys, why did he get a pass? Oh yeah, he had a HOF QB who could put up 40 points a week.

DA on the other hand needs a strong OC. He didn’t get a pass when that didn’t work out. It wasn’t his guys and he had suspect QBs. His defense still played well, but so what. Its not as flashy as putting up 40 on offense. As a result he was treated horribly by many of our fans. I was embarrassed for our fan base. We’re better than that. We’re smarter than that. Well, at least we should be. DA has been with our organization and has done a very good job for a long time. He deserved better. While I’m critical of Loomis, I’m glad he had the patience and class to give the guy a fair chance after he had to be Mickey’s scapegoat for 2 years.

In Allen I see a coach who has a vision and plan for the team. He pays no attention to noise. He’s busy being a leader, a football coach. Football is in his DNA. Day by day, week by week, season by season, he keeps pushing forward. I’m happy he has this chance to redeem himself from the dumpster fire he inherited in Oakland, where he played scapegoat for a different organization.

I've been saying from the get go that maybe DA didn't have the go ahead to change OCs. That out of loyalty PC was made OC . And without the benefit of seeing the future it made some sense. PC was calling plays in 2012 and did fine, but he had Drew. I thing PC's main problem is he was just not strong enough to be an OC without Payton to back him up And also he tried to fit DC in the mold of DB

 

[Artifactual]

Makes sense to me. All the crow people are eating about Derek Carr? I'm about to eat it for Dennis Allen.

All the people eating Derek Carr Crow are finding it hard to swallow.

Most of the same people refuse to even try a bite of Dennis Allen Crow.

They have this preconceived idea that it will taste like Buzzard.

 

[Saint KayBee]

First and foremost, the roster that Payton inherited was incomparable to the one he left for Allen. Second, Payton was a 1st-time head coach (not to mention the state of the organization/city at the time) while DA had HC experience and more more coaching experience in the league overall.

Payton also had a ton of cap space and leeway to cut or trade (for) basically any player he wanted. Allen was trying to replace the Hall of Fame coach who also had the Hall of Fame quarterback, and doing so while playing salary cap games aplenty.

Finally, it can't be overstated how ridiculously easy our schedule was the last two seasons. We've never seen anything like it, and we aren't likely to again.

2023 Saints strength of schedule: .427
2015 Saints strength of schedule: .430

One of these teams had a winning record, the other one had a Hall of Fame quarterback start 15 games.

All things considered, Payton's 19-18 start is easily more impressive than DA's current 18-18 Saints record.

This is fair, even if no 10-win team in either conference ever again got a 2-seed in the playoffs from 2007-2019, the final year before the playoffs expanded.

Hopefully DA sets the league on fire and presides over a Saints dynasty on his way to the HOF, but comparing his record to CSP's at this point is meaningless.

I think it’s good big-picture perspective. Payton’s Saints were never really as bad as those 2007/2008 records indicated - they were hampered by injuries and inconsistency. One may say the same of the 2022/2023 Saints. Each appears to have swung their fates on getting rid of loyal but overmatched assistants on the opposite side of the ball.

 

[NOLAJM504]

A different possibility is that he wasn’t responsible for keeping Pete in year one or year two. Mickey had a continuity program. They tried to lighten the blow of losing Payton by selling the snake oil that suggested things could be the same. It was a terrible plan and Mickey set him up to fail. Thankfully Mickey has let him bring in his guys (coaches and players) to combine with the good that he did inherit.

I don’t see DA behaving differently. I do so a coach who finally has his own coaches and players and is enjoying seeing it come together. The defense was always in his corner, on offense he inherited a very difficult situation. The bad outweighed the good. As they say, it only takes one bad apple to spoil the bunch. He inherited a situation that Sean ran away from.

Sean needed a strong DC to find success. He got a pass when it didn’t work out. Why? It was his guys, why did he get a pass? Oh yeah, he had a HOF QB who could put up 40 points a week.

DA on the other hand needs a strong OC. He didn’t get a pass when that didn’t work out. It wasn’t his guys and he had suspect QBs. His defense still played well, but so what. Its not as flashy as putting up 40 on offense. As a result he was treated horribly by many of our fans. I was embarrassed for our fan base. We’re better than that. We’re smarter than that. Well, at least we should be. DA has been with our organization and has done a very good job for a long time. He deserved better. While I’m critical of Loomis, I’m glad he had the patience and class to give the guy a fair chance after he had to be Mickey’s scapegoat for 2 years.

In Allen I see a coach who has a vision and plan for the team. He pays no attention to noise. He’s busy being a leader, a football coach. Football is in his DNA. Day by day, week by week, season by season, he keeps pushing forward. I’m happy he has this chance to redeem himself from the dumpster fire he inherited in Oakland, where he played scapegoat for a different organization.

The problem is, and I don't know the specifics of Kubiak's contract, but if this wasn't accounted for by Loomis then he potentially didn't consider all outcomes, but Kubiak's start here in New Orleans is bordering on historic, and we WILL lose him to another team if the team doesn't figure out a way not to without severing ties with DA.

 

[RJS]

The problem with that is that we know that they tried to hire Liam Cohen after DA's first season but he turned the job down and they decided to keep Pete. I find it really hard to believe that Loomis would let him hire Cohen but wouldn't let him hire anyone else.

It looks like whatever transpired with Liam Coen happened prior to year one not after,

Kentucky OC Liam Coen was 'in the mix' for Saints job, may join Rams instead

Kentucky offensive coordinator Liam Coen was ‘in the mix’ for Saints job, may join Rams instead:

saintswire.usatoday.com

 

[bobad]

Looks like DA is being held to a higher standard than most 1st, 2nd, and 3rd year coaches. I suppose it was because he was already on staff, and many thought that was a good leg up. Really, it was a leg chain the first 2 years.