N/S Zack Baun: Top Graded LB / DPOY cand. [Why Baun Isn’t Still a Saint Thread] (7 Viewers)

[Dome50]

Davenport contract wasnt up he was still on his rookie contract and we offer Hendrickson a contract but the Bengals offered a much BIGGER contract that the saints wasnt willing to match. Trey Signed a 4 yr 60 Mil contract, just as comparison in 2019 our Best lineman Cam Jordan sign a 3yr 52.5 mil extension. Bengals bet the farm on hendrickson and it panned out. But the saints didnt like hendrickson walk Bengals paid him to run

All of this is true. But, in my opinion, and at the time it happened, that was a totally reasonable contract for a man of Hendrickson's skills. 4 years, $60 million with only $16 million guaranteed. That's peanuts for a pass rusher that puts up double digit sacks yearly. Instead, we decided to roll with Davenport and his rookie contract and take money, that could have helped sign Hendrickson, and used it other places (like tagging Marcus Williamson). So we made a strategic decision to roll with Davenport and not sign Hendrickson. On paper, it made some sense but it didn't work out. Again, a failure on the part of the Saints from both a talent evaluation and contract standpoint.

I would totally get it if the Bengals came in and totally overpaid Hendrickson (with some Vonn Miller type contract with like $50 million plus guaranteed) but that's not what happened.

We have been looking for Cam Jordan's successor for like seven seasons now: Davenport, Payton, Foskey etc. We had one in house and let him get away.

 

[Rouxble]

with only $16 million guaranteed

That’s all that matters on NFL contracts. The Bengals could have moved on after one year if the previous season was really a fluke. Cam’s deal that was referenced earlier had $42m guaranteed

Edit to add the caveat that it’s the only thing that matters unless you’re tremendously over the cap every year.

 

[platinumvinnyv]

All of this is true. But, in my opinion, and at the time it happened, that was a totally reasonable contract for a man of Hendrickson's skills. 4 years, $60 million with only $16 million guaranteed. That's peanuts for a pass rusher that puts up double digit sacks yearly. Instead, we decided to roll with Davenport and his rookie contract and take money, that could have helped sign Hendrickson, and used it other places (like tagging Marcus Williamson). So we made a strategic decision to roll with Davenport and not sign Hendrickson. On paper, it made some sense but it didn't work out. Again, a failure on the part of the Saints from both a talent evaluation and contract standpoint.

I would totally get it if the Bengals came in and totally overpaid Hendrickson (with some Vonn Miller type contract with like $50 million plus guaranteed) but that's not what happened.

Yeah but Hendrickson didnt have multiple years double digit sacks here he wasnt that player on paper yet. I believe he had a break year before his contract, he wasnt a double digit sack player until the contract year

Year	Team	COMB	AST	Sack
2020​	Saints	25​	3​	13.5​
2019​	Saints	19​	8​	4.5​
2018​	Saints	8​	1​	0​
2017​	Saints	13​	6​	2​

 

[Bayouboy]

Yeah but Hendrickson didnt have multiple years double digit sacks here he wasnt that player on paper yet. I believe he had a break year before his contract, he wasnt a double digit sack player until the contract year

Year	Team	COMB	AST	Sack
2020​	Saints	25​	3​	13.5​
2019​	Saints	19​	8​	4.5​
2018​	Saints	8​	1​	0​
2017​	Saints	13​	6​	2​

And has posted double digit sacks every year since he left. It's exactly why we are infuriated at the front office for letting him walk. Do you know how hard it is to find an edge rusher that can impact the QB? We've used countless draft picks trying to replace Hendrickson with no results. The team got lucky with Granderson or we would be even in worse shape.

If this team didn't luck into Drew Brees, it would be the most mocked franchise in the history of sports.

 

[3ParStillDriver]

Yeah but Hendrickson didnt have multiple years double digit sacks here he wasnt that player on paper yet. I believe he had a break year before his contract, he wasnt a double digit sack player until the contract year

Year	Team	COMB	AST	Sack
2020​	Saints	25​	3​	13.5​
2019​	Saints	19​	8​	4.5​
2018​	Saints	8​	1​	0​
2017​	Saints	13​	6​	2​

It's a very common theme in the NFL for a good Edge rusher to take 3 or 4 years before you see their real output. 2020 we saw it. The Bengals saw. Saints coaches/front office did not. The Bengals offered a contract that would pay him his money if 2020 ended up being a fluke. Just for clarity, we could've done the same. We could've offered him 4 years with 20 million guaranteed. And we would've struck gold.

There's no simple way to put it. You could put it on the defensive line coach, Dennis Allen or Loomis. But someone, if not all 3 of them thought they could've found a better product in the draft and ended up being more wrong then ever.

Loomis is the GM. His job is based on the recommendation of his defensive coach. Payton was the head coach, and his job is to overrule the defensive coach if he believes he's wrong. Dennis Allen was wrong. Payton didn't overrule him. Loomis let him walk.

And we struck out with Davenport and Turner.

It happened once. I get it. No one is perfect. But now Baun is killing it up in Philly. Anzalone has gotten healthy and been a mad man for the Lions. Our dline and run defense fell apart as soon as we let Onyemata walk.

Theres a massive trend. The trend is that great talent in the front 7 was constantly let go. The lingering mark of an awful coach. The coach who made the call on that has been fired and is now in Chicago. It's now Chicago's problem.

Still blows my mind that anyone ever thought he might be a decent head coach. Blows my mind even more that a professional, actual GM thought so as well.

 

[Bayouboy]

It's a very common theme in the NFL for a good Edge rusher to take 3 or 4 years before you see their real output. 2020 we saw it. The Bengals saw. Saints coaches/front office did not. The Bengals offered a contract that would pay him his money if 2020 ended up being a fluke. Just for clarity, we could've done the same. We could've offered him 4 years with 20 million guaranteed. And we would've struck gold.

There's no simple way to put it. You could put it on the defensive line coach, Dennis Allen or Loomis. But someone, if not all 3 of them thought they could've found a better product in the draft and ended up being more wrong then ever.

Loomis is the GM. His job is based on the recommendation of his defensive coach. Payton was the head coach, and his job is to overrule the defensive coach if he believes he's wrong. Dennis Allen was wrong. Payton didn't overrule him. Loomis let him walk.

And we struck out with Davenport and Turner.

And like it or not....contrary to what some people think, being in "salary cap hell" DID play a part in the process. How can it not? Salary cap went down and the Saints were caught with their pants down. Don't believe all of the fans that say the salary cap number doesn't matter. That's a buncha bull.

 

[3ParStillDriver]

And like it or not....contrary to what some people think, being in "salary cap hell" DID play a part in the process. How can it not? Salary cap went down and the Saints were caught with their pants down. Don't believe all of the fans that say the salary cap number doesn't matter. That's a buncha bull.

It absolutely did. But even with the salary cap we could've made an offer to keep Hendrickson if the coaches said "we got to keep him" Loomis would've worked it.

Not offering good contracts to players we should've kept while offering massive contracts to players we should've let go isn't just a Dennis Allen or Loomis fault. It's a both fault.

 

[platinumvinnyv]

And has posted double digit sacks every year since he left. It's exactly why we are infuriated at the front office for letting him walk. Do you know how hard it is to find an edge rusher that can impact the QB? We've used countless draft picks trying to replace Hendrickson with no results. The team got lucky with Granderson or we would be even in worse shape.

If this team didn't luck into Drew Brees, it would be the most mocked franchise in the history of sports.

Here's my issue with this take. we lucked into Drew Brees but this is the ultimate example of a player out performing of what an organization thought of him. It happens all the time, but come to the saints its luck but when they leave its ineptness. I watched Henderson I watch Baun yes they left and improved I also watched Sproles, Brees, Jabari Greer. Yes I understand that If everyone knew that hendrickson was going to get 17 sacks in 2 seasons he was worth the money. We all know that its not hard 4 years later. I just dont understand how people expect GMs to predict the future.

This not directly at you Maybe it's just me I think, that i'm feeling the board is disappointed, which is understandable, but now days because everything is nitpicky insults. It feels like we not even talking about saints anymore or even having a discussion at this point. I wasn't trying to argue just offer a different perspective of Hey Trey wasnt trey and we gamble and lost it happens. Seems its just getting to the point if you not insulting, Allen or Loomis or a player why post. The team take to long to pick a coach lets insult the GM, we lost a player 4 years ago lets insults the coach that got fired, once we hire a coach lets insult the GM. Maybe its just time for me to take a break from SR

 

[3ParStillDriver]

Here's my issue with this take. we lucked into Drew Brees but this is the ultimate example of a player out performing of what an organization thought of him. It happens all the time, but come to the saints its luck but when they leave its ineptness. I watched Henderson I watch Baun yes they left and improved I also watched Sproles, Brees, Jabari Greer. Yes I understand that If everyone knew that hendrickson was going to get 17 sacks in 2 seasons he was worth the money. We all know that its not hard 4 years later. I just dont understand how people expect GMs to predict the future.

This not directly at you Maybe it's just me I think, that i'm feeling the board is disappointed, which is understandable, but now days because everything is nitpicky insults. It feels like we not even talking about saints anymore or even having a discussion at this point. I wasn't trying to argue just offer a different perspective of Hey Trey wasnt trey and we gamble and lost it happens. Seems its just getting to the point if you not insulting, Allen or Loomis or a player why post. The team take to long to pick a coach lets insult the GM, we lost a player 4 years ago lets insults the coach that got fired, once we hire a coach lets insult the GM. Maybe its just time for me to take a break from SR

I don't expect GM's to predict the future. But the mark of a good team is acquiring hidden talent that others over look and keeping great talent when its on your roster.

Even from 2006 to 2020, we made some mistakes, but we hit more often then we made those mistakes. This is why we were a talented team and a contender. Fast forward to 2022-2024 and its been the exact opposite. We let more talent walk then we've kept while extending players with hefty contracts that we should've let walk. For 3 years we've been doing the exact opposite of what we should do.

Loomis is the common denominator between the two. It stands to reason that Loomis was doing the recommendation of his coaches. Payton was right far more often then not. Dennis Allen was wrong more often then right.

 

[Saint KayBee]

Loomis is the common denominator between the two. It stands to reason that Loomis was doing the recommendation of his coaches. Payton was right far more often then not. Dennis Allen was wrong more often then right.

Okay, so the coach who was bad at year-over-year talent evaluation is gone. He can’t hurt this team anymore. If the next coach has his talent evaluations on-point, Loomis making it happen will bear good results.

Trey Hendrickson walked while Sean Payton was the HC.

 

[Bayouboy]

Here's my issue with this take. we lucked into Drew Brees but this is the ultimate example of a player out performing of what an organization thought of him. It happens all the time, but come to the saints its luck but when they leave its ineptness. I watched Henderson I watch Baun yes they left and improved I also watched Sproles, Brees, Jabari Greer. Yes I understand that If everyone knew that hendrickson was going to get 17 sacks in 2 seasons he was worth the money. We all know that its not hard 4 years later. I just dont understand how people expect GMs to predict the future.

This not directly at you Maybe it's just me I think, that i'm feeling the board is disappointed, which is understandable, but now days because everything is nitpicky insults. It feels like we not even talking about saints anymore or even having a discussion at this point. I wasn't trying to argue just offer a different perspective of Hey Trey wasnt trey and we gamble and lost it happens. Seems its just getting to the point if you not insulting, Allen or Loomis or a player why post. The team take to long to pick a coach lets insult the GM, we lost a player 4 years ago lets insults the coach that got fired, once we hire a coach lets insult the GM. Maybe its just time for me to take a break from SR

If you're looking for a place to rally around Mickey Loomis and sing his praises, you might not find that here. The fans are fed up with it all.

If not for Gail Benson forcing his hand, Loomis would not have fired Dennis Allen. A year ago or so, Loomis said "we have the right people in the building". And this year, "look past the results". Like it or not, the evidence points to incompetence by the General Manager of the team. When former players like Hendrickson and Baun are up for Defensive Player of the Year, you simply ask yourself the question of "how did we miss this". Natural reaction, honestly.

Hopefully, Loomis gets it right with the coaching search. Take as much time as you need. Let's get this right.

 

[3ParStillDriver]

Okay, so the coach who was bad at year-over-year talent evaluation is gone. He can’t hurt this team anymore. If the next coach has his talent evaluations on-point, Loomis making it happen will bear good results.

Trey Hendrickson walked while Sean Payton was the HC.

Its well known that Dennis Allen wasn't just play calling but was entirely running the defense. Payton was also known to go off the recommendations of Dennis Allen. It's not a coincidence that we lost so much good/great front 7 talent during his tenure here as DC and Head Coach then we did in the previous 9 years. By a large margin.

 

[platinumvinnyv]

If you're looking for a place to rally around Mickey Loomis and sing his praises, you might not find that here. The fans are fed up with it all.

If not for Gail Benson forcing his hand, Loomis would not have fired Dennis Allen. A year ago or so, Loomis said "we have the right people in the building". And this year, "look past the results". Like it or not, the evidence points to incompetence by the General Manager of the team. When former players like Hendrickson and Baun are up for Defensive Player of the Year, you simply ask yourself the question of "how did we miss this". Natural reaction, honestly.

Hopefully, Loomis gets it right with the coaching search. Take as much time as you need. Let's get this right.

Yes discussing Trey Hendrickson and Zach Baun, is me wanting to Rally and sing praise of Mickey Loomis that was the entire point I was trying to make.

 

[tinman]

Other than with crystal clear hindsight, does anybody truly think that Baun would have had a ProBowl season in this defense? Would he have elevated the D line to great heights? How many more wins could we have?

 

[OldTimeGamer1966]

Stupid to ever let him walk. Did I think he'd turn into this? No, and most people probably didn't. But even as a rotational pass rusher, he was flashing here and worth a near league-minimum deal.

For a team that desperately needed pass rushers, how did it make sense to not re-sign him? Never mind that he has turned into a great full-time LB.

I was corrected that he walked for playing time which I cannot blame him for. I don't know who he was backing up at the time but whoever it was thought the starters in from of him were more valuable. I agree with you.