Trans athletes make great gains, yet resentment still flares (6 Viewers)

[GeauxWhoDats]

Out of curiosity, and no judgment here, but would you have felt the same had that 98 lb freshmen been a fraternity pledge?

Probably because like I said it was for fun. I am competitive but I never went into that type of setting with the intent to physically hurt someone. This poor girl had no clue what she was doing out there and I can still hear the wind being knocked out of her. I guess that I felt so bad was because she could have really been hurt but lacked the experience on how to handle/protect herself from injury.

I will add this. If the 98 lb "bro" was the kind to talk trash all game, I might have dipped a shoulder in him.

 

[St. Widge]

Probably because like I said it was for fun. I am competitive but I never went into that type of setting with the intent to physically hurt someone. This poor girl had no clue what she was doing out there and I can still hear the wind being knocked out of her. I guess that I felt so bad was because she could have really been hurt but lacked the experience on how to handle/protect herself from injury.

I will add this. If the 98 lb "bro" was the kind to talk trash all game, I might have dipped a shoulder in him.

I guess part of the reason I asked is because we as a society seem to make a distinction between those two. I mean, we don't seem to care if the biggest fastest dudes dominate the smaller, slower dudes, but we don't want the bigger faster dudes to dominate women who happen to be slower and smaller.

Now, I know most elite athletes want to actually compete and not just beat up on weaker opponents, but it seems like we as a society are okay watching Alabama blow out a lower division mens football team, but we would not be okay watching say The Lakers blow out a lower division women's basketball team. And I think that might be at the core of why transgender women playing women's sports is an issue. But, as others have said, I don't really have a solution to the issue.

 

[GeauxWhoDats]

I guess part of the reason I asked is because we as a society seem to make a distinction between those two. I mean, we don't seem to care if the biggest fastest dudes dominate the smaller, slower dudes, but we don't want the bigger faster dudes to dominate women who happen to be slower and smaller.

Now, I know most elite athletes want to actually compete and not just beat up on weaker opponents, but it seems like we as a society are okay watching Alabama blow out a lower division mens football team, but we would not be okay watching say The Lakers blow out a lower division women's basketball team. And I think that might be at the core of why transgender women playing women's sports is an issue. But, as others have said, I don't really have a solution to the issue.

I think that everyone agrees that not all athletes are equal regardless of gender but when it comes to a sport where strength and size are major contributors to the success of the athlete the mixing of genders becomes a very slippery slope. Men that transition to Women via surgery/mentally still retain the attributes of their previous gender (i.e. The 6'6" 50 yr old retired Navy Officer now playing girls collegiate basketball). If you really want to find the solution to this issue then just remove the gender requirement for all sports and let everyone participate.

Title IX has been demolished by this movement.

 

[eaton co saint]

I am not a great at posting so please forgive.

As a parent of twin 14 year old girls, I struggle with allowing transgender girls participating in competitive sports. Specifically, school sports. One of the articles posted in 2020 was about a 5A track transgender girl that won a state championship. Not only did she win, she set a state record. The second place member was also a transgender girl. I feel sorry for the girls that finished 3rd, 4th and 5th. Not to mention the 2 girls that didn't get the opportunity to compete.

My twins are always at a competitive disadvantage. After all, they are my kids. I come from a long line of short people and I married a woman that is, as you can guess, short. My girls are good athletes but they are always the shortest on the court or field. They both can run, catch, throw, shoot etc.. and understand that life is not fair. They grasp that they have to be better just to get a second look. My 4'10" volleyball player will not play VB in high school. Her decision is not based on talent alone but on the fact that the VB coach has had multiple opportunities to coach her and has not selected her for her competitive teams. Life is not fair, my daughter understands that she has reached her VB limit in this town. She is still going to play VB for her competitive team but will compete in high school softball instead. (Softball in Colorado is a fall sport)

I guess my point to this rant is transgenders are, per a limited source in SR postings, about 1% of the population. Why are we catering to a population of 1% at the expense of others that already have the cards stacked against them, so transgender girls can win/2nd a 5A state championship. There are plenty of pay to play and rec sports that fulfill a persons desire to compete. I am not saying that transgender athletes shouldn't be allowed to play sports, their participation should not be at the expense of others.

I have, over the course of 2 days, read all of the comments/articles on this thread and the only comment that I disagree with is that records don't matter. If records don't matter, how does one measure their progress against the best. When a transgender sets the record that becomes the new measuring stick for all to compare themselves to. The girl that finished 3rd, in I believe NJ, would not have set a record but she would be able to say that she was the fastest girl in the state that year. That was taken from her and if that was my daughter, I would not be happy about it. This is not meant to bash transgender athletes but when we allow special exemptions, others are left out.

Thanks,
Ben

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I am not a great at posting so please forgive.

As a parent of twin 14 year old girls, I struggle with allowing transgender girls participating in competitive sports. Specifically, school sports. One of the articles posted in 2020 was about a 5A track transgender girl that won a state championship. Not only did she win, she set a state record. The second place member was also a transgender girl. I feel sorry for the girls that finished 3rd, 4th and 5th. Not to mention the 2 girls that didn't get the opportunity to compete.

My twins are always at a competitive disadvantage. After all, they are my kids. I come from a long line of short people and I married a woman that is, as you can guess, short. My girls are good athletes but they are always the shortest on the court or field. They both can run, catch, throw, shoot etc.. and understand that life is not fair. They grasp that they have to be better just to get a second look. My 4'10" volleyball player will not play VB in high school. Her decision is not based on talent alone but on the fact that the VB coach has had multiple opportunities to coach her and has not selected her for her competitive teams. Life is not fair, my daughter understands that she has reached her VB limit in this town. She is still going to play VB for her competitive team but will compete in high school softball instead. (Softball in Colorado is a fall sport)

I guess my point to this rant is transgenders are, per a limited source in SR postings, about 1% of the population. Why are we catering to a population of 1% at the expense of others that already have the cards stacked against them, so transgender girls can win/2nd a 5A state championship. There are plenty of pay to play and rec sports that fulfill a persons desire to compete. I am not saying that transgender athletes shouldn't be allowed to play sports, their participation should not be at the expense of others.

I have, over the course of 2 days, read all of the comments/articles on this thread and the only comment that I disagree with is that records don't matter. If records don't matter, how does one measure their progress against the best. When a transgender sets the record that becomes the new measuring stick for all to compare themselves to. The girl that finished 3rd, in I believe NJ, would not have set a record but she would be able to say that she was the fastest girl in the state that year. That was taken from her and if that was my daughter, I would not be happy about it. This is not meant to bash transgender athletes but when we allow special exemptions, others are left out.

Thanks,
Ben

I don’t understand how your example supports your conclusion- if there were no trans athletes, it doesn’t effect your daughters’ issue in any way
In fact you seem to support the contention that many are making about the limits of gender being the main competitive fault line

 

[rajncajn]

I don’t understand how your example supports your conclusion- if there were no trans athletes, it doesn’t effect your daughters’ issue in any way
In fact you seem to support the contention that many are making about the limits of gender being the main competitive fault line

I can't speak for him, but the point seems pretty clear to me. His girls are at a natural disadvantage & that is something they have to accept because it's something that they cannot overcome without a lot of hard work. But, similar to his daughters' situation with the VB coach, allowing transgender athletes in women's sports pretty much stacks the deck against them and not just them, but a very large majority of other women in the field. I think he's trying to explain how discouraging it would be for girls who are already at a disadvantage to know that there's that many less opportunities for them to compete. So, for the sake of inclusion for transgenders, you're also excluding others.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

I can't speak for him, but the point seems pretty clear to me. His girls are at a natural disadvantage & that is something they have to accept because it's something that they cannot overcome without a lot of hard work. But, similar to his daughters' situation with the VB coach, allowing transgender athletes in women's sports pretty much stacks the deck against them and not just them, but a very large majority of other women in the field. I think he's trying to explain how discouraging it would be for girls who are already at a disadvantage to know that there's that many less opportunities for them to compete. So, for the sake of inclusion for transgenders, you're also excluding others.

But again, as per his example, if ‘they’ didn’t allow trans athletes; his daughters don’t get taller- the competitive disadvantage remains
Excluding trans doesn’t fix anything

 

[rajncajn]

But again, as per his example, if ‘they’ didn’t allow trans athletes; his daughters don’t get taller- the competitive disadvantage remains
Excluding trans doesn’t fix anything

If you have 10 spots for female track athletes on a high school team and two of the girls trying out are trans athletes, it's basically stacking the deck against girls who are already at a disadvantage to even make the team. As with the example he gave about his daughter not even bothering to try out for a VB coach who she knows isn't going to select her, having trans athletes trying out for the 10 slot track team would very likely discourage a lot of girls who may be on the fringe, but still had a chance.

 

[DaveXA]

But again, as per his example, if ‘they’ didn’t allow trans athletes; his daughters don’t get taller- the competitive disadvantage remains
Excluding trans doesn’t fix anything

If the hypothetical trans takes a spot, if the daughter is 10th out of a possible 10 spots and gets bumped off because a trans takes her spot, that by definition deprives her of the opportunity to make the roster. Similar can be said for a trans taking a starting spot that another female athlete might otherwise be able to take.

And fwiw, I don't have an issue with trans, my daughter is very supportive of them and two of her closest friends are as well. I think if they've completed the transition and have completed all of the treatments, I'm open to it. But even after all of that, I wonder how much residual effects remain that give them a physical advantage compared to other female athletes.

These situations are still pretty rare, and I think maybe a case by case approach may be warranted. I don't know what the right answers are, but women should be given a level playing field, and that may not be the case if they're competing vs trans.

I've thought trans athletes could have their own leagues, but I'm not sure that there are enough of them for that to be a viable option.

 

[kizzy821]

I wonder if girls who transitioned to boys are equally eager to join boys sports team. And why/why not.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

If you have 10 spots for female track athletes on a high school team and two of the girls trying out are trans athletes, it's basically stacking the deck against girls who are already at a disadvantage to even make the team. As with the example he gave about his daughter not even bothering to try out for a VB coach who she knows isn't going to select her, having trans athletes trying out for the 10 slot track team would very likely discourage a lot of girls who may be on the fringe, but still had a chance.

This.

if you essentially convert a 10 girl roster into a 10 person co-ed roster (biologically speaking, don't @ me) you are going to have fewer girls on the final roster.

 

[Optimus Prime]

If the hypothetical trans takes a spot, if the daughter is 10th out of a possible 10 spots and gets bumped off because a trans takes her spot, that by definition deprives her of the opportunity to make the roster. Similar can be said for a trans taking a starting spot that another female athlete might otherwise be able to take.

And fwiw, I don't have an issue with trans, my daughter is very supportive of them and two of her closest friends are as well. I think if they've completed the transition and have completed all of the treatments, I'm open to it. But even after all of that, I wonder how much residual effects remain that give them a physical advantage compared to other female athletes.

These situations are still pretty rare, and I think maybe a case by case approach may be warranted. I don't know what the right answers are, but women should be given a level playing field, and that may not be the case if they're competing vs trans.

I've thought trans athletes could have their own leagues, but I'm not sure that there are enough of them for that to be a viable option.

This is how I read the comment too

But that's the danger of being the 10th person on a 10 person team

A new girl moves to town and bumps number 10 off the team

Your position on the team is always hanging by a thread

 

[rajncajn]

This is how I read the comment too

But that's the danger of being the 10th person on a 10 person team

A new girl moves to town and bumps number 10 off the team

Your position on the team is always hanging by a thread

It is. That's just part of life & it's something we all have to learn to live with, but that's sort of the point. Why does girl #10 have to learn to live and accept her natural deficiencies whereas trans girls are given special exception and allowed to participate in a field with the odds stacked in their favor?

 

[DaveXA]

This is how I read the comment too

But that's the danger of being the 10th person on a 10 person team

A new girl moves to town and bumps number 10 off the team

Your position on the team is always hanging by a thread

Sure, but adding more to the mix means that 10 person gets bumped off who would otherwise have that opportunity. The 10th spot is not ideally where you'd want to be, but it's going to be someone. And that someone loses a chance to gain life experience traveling and practicing with the team.

Maybe they can expand the rosters to include trans, but the competitive balance may still be problematic. If a team with a trans has a competitive disadvantage vs one without, I'm sure those without are going to claim it's not fair to them.

But yeah, I don't know what the best answer is.

 

[Optimus Prime]

At the heart of this issue is is their an advantage for trans athletes, some say yes, some say no

This article says that not only is there an advantage it lasts longer than previously thought
=========================================
A groundbreaking new study on transgender athletes has found trans women retain a 12% advantage in running tests even after taking hormones for two years to suppress their testosterone. The results, researchers suggest, indicate the current International Olympic Committee guidelines may give trans women an “unfair competitive advantage” over biological women.


World Rugby recently became the first sports federation to ban trans women from women’s rugby, citing “significant” safety risks and fairness concerns. But most sports still follow IOC guidelines from 2015, which permit trans women to play against biological women providing their testosterone remains below 10 nanomoles per litre – a figure higher than average biological female levels, which range from 0.12 to 1.79nmol/L.

However the new study, based on the fitness test results and medical records of 29 trans men and 46 trans women who started gender affirming hormones while in the United States Air Force, appears to challenge the IOC’s scientific position.

The research, published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine, found that before starting their hormone treatment trans women performed 31% more push-ups and 15% more sit-ups in one minute on average than a biological women younger than 30 in the air force – and ran 1.5 miles 21% faster.

Yet after suppressing their testosterone for two years – a year longer than IOC guidelines – they were still 12% faster on average than biological females.

The trans women also retained a 10% advantage in push-ups and a 6% advantage in sit-ups for the first two years after taking hormones, before their advantage disappeared. But the researchers say they “may underestimate the advantage in strength that trans women have over cis women … because trans women will have a higher power output than cis women when performing an equivalent number of push-ups”...............

Trans women retain 12% edge in tests two years after transitioning, study finds | Sport | The Guardian