Another police shooting - this time in Wisconsin... (1 Viewer)

[Semper]

Agreed...



Also agreed...



I'm not comfortable with open or concealed carry laws....at all...I don't trust people any longer generally speaking, it just takes one misunderstanding, one heated, intensified incident among strangers that could very quickly take a tragic turn....

By the letter of Wisconsin's rather ridiculously lax gun laws, yes he was not guilty....in a lot of states he would have been convicted of manslaughter....I can't understand how this happens in the US, and anyone who thinks his real purpose there was to "protect and help" really isn't worth engaging with....and that judge is a weird idiot....

To be clear Wisconsin got their laws from Utah and Florida. Florida is considered the Gold Standard of ccw laws. There are about 36-38 states that currently recognize these states and allow us to carry in their state. For instance with my Wisconsin permit I can carry concealed in Louisiana.

 

[DaveXA]

It could establish the character of the individual... KT was acting in self defense. A jury of 12 people voted unanimously KR was innocent. They were even given the option of lesser charges and they didn't need it. I don't know much about picking juries but I would imagine a prosecutor has some say in that. Maybe a lawyer on here could explain how they are

For it tells a story of their character. Has nothing to do with what KR knew, but everything to do with how they typically behave.

Maybe, but I'd stick with how they interacted with KR. KR has no idea who they were and how they've behaved prior to the incident isn't a factor here. At least I don't think it should be. I don't know whether the jury considered that though.

 

[DaveXA]

Where does the government get the money to for liability and damages? From the tax payers, so maybe citizens do have a right to show up to defend private/public property since those elected wont do it?

But legally, they don't have that right. It's already been shown that it's illegal to do outside specific and narrowly defined circumstances. Those doing it are ignorant of the law and actually contributing to the violence by making already tense situations worse, not to mention bringing firearms to a protest which imo should be illegal.

 

[sfidc3]

To be clear Wisconsin got their laws from Utah and Florida. Florida is considered the Gold Standard of ccw laws. There are about 36-38 states that currently recognize these states and allow us to carry in their state. For instance with my Wisconsin permit I can carry concealed in Louisiana.

Not surprising to me....at all...that Florida is the gold standard of insanely lax gun laws....

 

[Farb]

But legally, they don't have that right. It's already been shown that it's illegal to do outside specific and narrowly defined circumstances. Those doing it are ignorant of the law and actually contributing to the violence by making already tense situations worse, not to mention bringing firearms to a protest which imo should be illegal.

Are you sure a citizen does not have a right to bear arms and defend private or public property and to defend ones self if attacked?
Would it be a tense situation of rioters were not there? If rioters had not already burned Kenosha, KR would not have been there to begin with so the comedy of errors began with 'protest' of a police crime that simply did not occur. We all seem to forget that.

outlawing bring a firearm to a protest might be a good idea, but that would require the elected officials to do their job and pass laws after debate. What if the 'protest' is outside your door or business? Would you have the right to bear a weapon on your property?

 

[Det. Brees]

I dont get how people dont understand that we have a right to defend ourselves!

 

[DaveXA]

I dont get how people dont understand that we have a right to defend ourselves!

That's not what's being debated though.

 

[DaveXA]

Are you sure a citizen does not have a right to bear arms and defend private or public property and to defend ones self if attacked?
Would it be a tense situation of rioters were not there? If rioters had not already burned Kenosha, KR would not have been there to begin with so the comedy of errors began with 'protest' of a police crime that simply did not occur. We all seem to forget that.

outlawing bring a firearm to a protest might be a good idea, but that would require the elected officials to do their job and pass laws after debate. What if the 'protest' is outside your door or business? Would you have the right to bear a weapon on your property?

A citizen has a right to bear arms, but it's not unlimited. There are numerous places where you can't enter with a firearm. One of them should be large public gatherings.

You can defend your private property to the extent allowed by law. That also isn't unlimited as was pointed out based on Wisconsin law.

You can defend yourself if attacked. Even that isn't unlimited. You can't shoot someone who is unarmed and making verbal threats. You can't goad someone into attacking you so that you can shoot them. Well, some would argue you can now because they think this is precisely what KR did. I can't read his mind, so I don't know. But from prior statements and history, it seems as though he went there expecting to find trouble.

The protesting and rioting certainly was a problem, but it's up to the local government and other authorities to defuse the situation. Knuckleheads bringing guns to an already volatile situation, and this is what happens.

As for protesting on my property, of course I have a right to bear arms and protect my property, but I can't just shoot at people coming onto the property. The circumstances would have to be pretty narrow for that to happen.

 

[HoustonSaint68]

I don't see how it is relevant where he was when he was attacked because he was legally allowed to be there and legally allowed to be armed. Self defense is self defense regardless of the location.

Did you actually read my post? I wasn’t addressing the legal defense of self-defense, I was addressing the reaction of people here to the shootings and his location is very relevant to that.

Why respond to someone’s post if you’re not going to actually read and try to comprehend it?

 

[Semper]

To be clear Wisconsin got their laws from Utah and Florida. Florida is considered the Gold Standard of ccw laws. There are about 36-38 states that currently recognize these states and allow us to carry in their state. For instance with my Wisconsin permit I can carry concealed in Louisiana.

Not surprising to me....at all...that Florida is the gold standard of insanely lax gun laws....

They have been in place for over 20 years. I would bet Chicago has more gun crime per year than all of Florida.

 

[St. Widge]

I don't see how it is relevant where he was when he was attacked because he was legally allowed to be there and legally allowed to be armed. Self defense is self defense regardless of the location.

Legally, yes. Morally? Probably not.

 

[St. Widge]

Are you sure a citizen does not have a right to bear arms and defend private or public property and to defend ones self if attacked?
Would it be a tense situation of rioters were not there? If rioters had not already burned Kenosha, KR would not have been there to begin with so the comedy of errors began with 'protest' of a police crime that simply did not occur. We all seem to forget that.

outlawing bring a firearm to a protest might be a good idea, but that would require the elected officials to do their job and pass laws after debate. What if the 'protest' is outside your door or business? Would you have the right to bear a weapon on your property?

A citizen only has the right to defend his own property and in most places only if they have a reasonable fear for their own lives or others on their property. Maybe there are some places the will let you defend the property of others, but I don't know of any. And even when it's your own property, the force used has to be in proportion to the threat. He got off here not because he was defending property, but because he was found to be defending himself.

As far as a law against bringing guns to protests (or to places where there is civil unrest in general), the issue of your own property can be easily taken care of by making that an exception to the rule.

 

[St. Widge]

I dont get how people dont understand that we have a right to defend ourselves!

I hope you are being intentionally obtuse because that is clearly not what anyone is saying here. The issue is should a private citizen be able to purposely put themselves in danger (in contradiction to what law enforcement asked them to do) and then be able to claim self-defense. It's clear the laws of Wisconsin allow it, but the question is should they allow it?

 

[Brandon13]

A citizen only has the right to defend his own property and in most places only if they have a reasonable fear for their own lives or others on their property. Maybe there are some places the will let you defend the property of others, but I don't know of any. And even when it's your own property, the force used has to be in proportion to the threat. He got off here not because he was defending property, but because he was found to be defending himself.

As far as a law against bringing guns to protests (or to places where there is civil unrest in general), the issue of your own property can be easily taken care of by making that an exception to the rule.

I'm nearly positive that @superchuck500 posted something yesterday that indicated that in Wisconsin an individual is allowed to defend a third party's property as if it's their own.

 

[DaveXA]

I'm nearly positive that @superchuck500 posted something yesterday that indicated that in Wisconsin an individual is allowed to defend a third party's property as if it's their own.

A third party can do so, but the circumstances allowing for this is actually laid out and rather narrow. Someone can't just go and do it. They would have to be a family member, employee or specifically legally obligated to do so. The KR situation wouldn't qualify under this particular statute.

Here it is, originally posted by superchuck.