US ports longshoremen’s strike (East and Gulf coasts) (2 Viewers)

[guidomerkinsrules]

Just drove past the picket line on Tchoupitoulas St on the way to work - all the picket signs say "FIGHT AUTOMATION! SAVE JOBS!'

I assumed the automation piece was just a bargaining chip for higher wages but maybe not. Seems like bad strategy to me - I think they can sell the public on higher wages to make up for inflation or even COVID hazard pay. But the automation fight seems a lot harder to win.

Perfect being the enemy of the good
I doubt there’s ever been a protest anywhere that the general public thought ‘yup, that’s the exact correct approach’
The nature of protest indicates there is a (near) intractable position that another group is trying to dislodge
The ones who created the intractable situation want the focus to be on the method of dislodging vs the process that got us here in the first place

Every successful protest has had heaps of people saying why it shouldn’t/wouldn’t work

(Which is not an argument that all protests are justifiable, just that most arguments against methods of protest are usually just distraction)

 

[Tapxe]

Shoot for moon but that also means you can't complain when your hugely inflated salary demand leads to

I get that. But why is it a non-starter to say that executive pay is out of control as well. Shouldn't they stop complaining about paying taxes when they have so much?

Why is this only looked at from the lens of working poor people suck and are aren't worthy of pay that lets them lead a life of dignity? Some say America was great in the 40's-60's. Here's the chart on what was happening then tax wise. Notice they do not advocate going back to that highly successful structure.

For example...

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

Perfect being the enemy of the good
I doubt there’s ever been a protest anywhere that the general public thought ‘yup, that’s the exact correct approach’
The nature of protest indicates there is a (near) intractable position that another group is trying to dislodge
The ones who created the intractable situation want the focus to be on the method of dislodging vs the process that got us here in the first place

Every successful protest has had heaps of people saying why it shouldn’t/wouldn’t work

(Which is not an argument that all protests are justifiable, just that most arguments against methods of protest are usually just distraction)

Sure.

I'm just saying, good luck selling that.

I get that. But why is it a non-starter to say that executive pay is out of control as well. Shouldn't they stop complaining about paying taxes when they have so much?

Why is this only looked at from the lens of working poor people suck and are aren't worthy of pay that lets them lead a life of dignity? Some say America was great in the 40's-60's. Here's the chart on what was happening then tax wise. Notice they do not advocate going back to that highly successful structure.

For example...

I didn't say anything was a non-starter? I said let the market sort it out - that applies to management as well. If you squeeze your employees too hard or refuse to share profits with them, it will eventually backfire (like when they decide to unionize).

But on the flip side, if you're asking for something unreasonable, it's likely not going to end well.

There's a famous story around my office about a young exec who really wanted a raise - he went to his boss's office and told him (falsely), 'Hey, I just wanted you to know I've received another job offer that will pay me 25% more than I'm making...." Before he could even finish the sentence the boss stood up and shook his hand and said, "Well that's great, congratulations, good luck!"

 

[efil4stnias]

Just drove past the picket line on Tchoupitoulas St on the way to work - all the picket signs say "FIGHT AUTOMATION! SAVE JOBS!'

I assumed the automation piece was just a bargaining chip for higher wages but maybe not. Seems like bad strategy to me - I think they can sell the public on higher wages to make up for inflation or even COVID hazard pay. But the automation fight seems a lot harder to win.

here is the irony-

lets, for a minute, say these guys are successful. They get their 77% raise AND remove ALL automation from the port.

Now, EVERY movement at the port is done manually. Now, Jim turned 30 over weekend. He and 3 other port worker friends tied one on Sunday night. They go to work Monday, pretty hungover. Ship comes in. its 95 degrees. Think they are busting hump to unload that ship today? So instead of unloading 10 tons of cargo, they unload 4 tons. That delays delivery. Delivery of goods that people were expecting on time. That hinders the truckers ability to earn money- instead of 10 trips of hauling containers/good- they do 4 trips. ( Truckers are paid by trip not hourly )

There is a cascade of effects.

Jim, a few days later, gets on FB and complains that the gift his wife bought for him STILL HASNT ARRIVED. Gets 100s of likes complaining about "delivery" and "shipping". He also complains about the "higher cost of goods " he purchases.

Completely unaware that part of the formula for the delivery time or cost of goods is what it costs to ship into US. Which happens to include unloading and transportation.

Furthermore, removing ALL automation, makes the port RELY 100% on manpower. What happens if Cat 5 storm heading for New Orleans? are Port employees sticking around? What about a week AFTER storm- no power, no infrastructure ( roads impassible/blocked ) the PORT is effectively closed. Sure, they on hourly, so thought is they want to get back to work, but cant because not enough men/crane operators/forklift operators to unload - so ship sits. Biting the shipping company. Biting the consumer.

Puts the Port in a very untenable situation with respect to reliance on manpower- but gives the manpower almost 100% control. Want more money- we strike - and this time it will really hurt because there is ZERO ability to move goods of that ship.

I get the "job security" aspect- i do. Ive lived it my entire career as a "commission only" employee. But at some point you dont bring any "Value added" to your job, you are expendable- its that simple. Automation or not. Its with almost ANY job position.

So part of me thinks they are wrasslin with this beast ( automation ) because of "job security" when putting the Port reliant on 100% manpower to effectively operate will accomplish the opposite.

If that port sits closed for 10 days due to manpower shortage- the FIRST thing the powers that be think of to keep port going- automation.

 

[Eeyore]

i was in the UFCW (United Food and Commercial Workers) uion for 20 years at 2 different employers. One time we did go on strike, National Supermarkets (The Real Superstore, Canal Villarie) I was young and did it help the older guys who had a career there. The local union guys were great, but once the National guys came around, they were just not realiatic and were over the top with a lot of things they said and did. It was like they were out of touch with people who worked for a living.
I am Pro Union, and i have seen the best and the worse of it. IMO, these dock workers are letting this union leader set them up for failure, whether its now or in the long run. They should know the automation is coming and work hard at integrating that IN the contract so they can benefit from it in the future.

It's going to fail regardless. Automation will happen. This might be their last bite at the apple. They could promise $100 per hour. It wouldn't matter if there's a machine doing the job. The only chance that they have is now.

Nearly everything will be automated or completed with AI. Who will buy the products if everybody has been replaced by machines? The answer is that the rich don't care. The whole thing is going to fail. I'm glad that I don't have kids that would have to deal with this

 

[St. Widge]

This is just moving the goalposts to have ‘selfishness’ be defined as ‘that which helped us survive’

I am not moving goal posts and I'm not defining selfishness as that which helps us survive. In nature, prior to the creation of "civilization" and society, selfishness is the key to survival. It only makes sense to help others if helping them makes you safer and makes it easier for you to survive. It's at the core of why we formed "civilization" and why we agree to give up the freedom to do anything to enter into society. It's the whole social contract thing - Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau. It's not because we want to help others, it's because we realize that by giving up the right to do anything we make ourselves safer and increase our odds of surviving in a brutal world.

The fact is that sharing and caring about others is a learned behavior that is taught so that you can co-exist in society. We don't need to teach children to act in their own self-interest. We need to teach them to share and care about others in order to exist in society and make the society that mutual protects us all stronger. To the extent that people remain selfish, it's society's failure to effectively motivate people to go against their nature, it's not society teaching them to be selfish.

It's why we need laws because our nature is to do things that break those laws. It's why sociopaths often kill, act completely in their own self-interest, and don't understand the pain caused to others. They act purely on their nature because they aren't capable of understanding the rules of "civilized" society or complying with social norms.

Hell, it's part of the the reason home schooling is bad and why homeschooled kids often turn into unsocialized, selfish brats. School is one of the ways that we socialize children to sacrifice their natural instinct to only act in their own self-interest and teach them to cooperate socially.

Given your emphasis on "rebuking", you clearly feel strongly that people are good at base and that somehow society makes them bad, but I don't see any evidence of it.

 

[St. Widge]

It's going to fail regardless. Automation will happen. This might be their last bite at the apple. They could promise $100 per hour. It wouldn't matter if there's a machine doing the job. The only chance that they have is now.

It seems to me that in that situation when you know you are doomed to fail in the long run, the smart move would be to negotiate for more money, guarantees for a certain number of jobs for a certain time period, and for the employers to fund free training to train guys to work with the new automated systems or pay for them to be trained for other job markets.

 

[HoustonGold]

So they are protesting computers. Good luck with that.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

So they are protesting computers. Good luck with that.

In the same interview where Daggett talked about crippling the economy posted above he also gave the examples of how everyone used to have to wait to pay a toll to a union worker but now they can just zip through with EZ Pass. He thinks that's a bad thing, to be clear.

There's a big difference between "We deserve higher wages" vs "We want to make everyone else's life worse"

 

[Sailorsaint]

In the same interview where Daggett talked about crippling the economy posted above he also gave the examples of how everyone used to have to wait to pay a toll to a union worker but now they can just zip through with EZ Pass. He thinks that's a bad thing, to be clear.

There's a big difference between "We deserve higher wages" vs "We want to make everyone else's life worse"

I don’t know about you guys but I’m not a Luddite and don’t want to live like that.

 

[bigdaddysaints]

It's going to fail regardless. Automation will happen. This might be their last bite at the apple. They could promise $100 per hour. It wouldn't matter if there's a machine doing the job. The only chance that they have is now.

Nearly everything will be automated or completed with AI. Who will buy the products if everybody has been replaced by machines? The answer is that the rich don't care. The whole thing is going to fail. I'm glad that I don't have kids that would have to deal with this

As good as automation is , it still requires operators, installers, maint people to fix, engineers to calibrate, so on and so forth. will it reduce the hands on labor? a lot yes. But the people who rag others for wanting to go to college, just don't see the long view of where the future is going.
I work at a plant, there is a lot of automation now that wasn't here 30 years ago. but instead of a guy in the field manually opening and closing valves, a guy sitting behing a switch board is doing it.
They built that Amazon Warehouse in BR, and i think they said its 80% automated. so that probably replaced a ot of workers. but the same can be said about just any advancement in any field. you can't demonize business for doing that. Should we blame farmers for using tractors when that tractor replaced a bunch of workers?

 

[efil4stnias]

But the people who rag others for wanting to go to college, just don't see the long view of where the future is going.

i had a buddy go work at the Port out of high school. His dad got him "on". By age 25 he was driving a Mustang 5.0 while rest of us were toiling away in a used auto, working in hospitality or whatever other temp industry until we found our niche ( or graduated college )

The allure of making $50,000/yr at 25 is STRONG- especially when you only hold diploma/ged. I get it. And at 25 you are NOT thinking what life will be at 45. Shoot, i doubt i was thinking what life would be for me at 30 lol.

point is, part of this equation is that folks must understand what "career arc" will look like in a particular field. Not 5 years from now, but 25 years from now.

That HAS to be part of the education of young adults entering workforce. They must understand this aspect so that when change comes ( and its inevitable ) to be prepared for it.

 

[guidomerkinsrules]

As good as automation is , it still requires operators, installers, maint people to fix, engineers to calibrate, so on and so forth. will it reduce the hands on labor? a lot yes. But the people who rag others for wanting to go to college, just don't see the long view of where the future is going.
I work at a plant, there is a lot of automation now that wasn't here 30 years ago. but instead of a guy in the field manually opening and closing valves, a guy sitting behing a switch board is doing it.
They built that Amazon Warehouse in BR, and i think they said its 80% automated. so that probably replaced a ot of workers. but the same can be said about just any advancement in any field. you can't demonize business for doing that. Should we blame farmers for using tractors when that tractor replaced a bunch of workers?

Ironically this is a good argument for unions
You imply that the needs/wants of business/industry is the sole/main arbiter
But there is no innate rightness of business (or working)
It is ALL social construct
For a functioning society the wants of both sides of the ledger (or add consumers for additional sides) need to be addressed
And why should it fall on government to be the (inefficient) cushion to absorb all the people that industry wants to shed
It’s completely reasonable to say that industry doesn’t just get to exploit - that if they understand the importance of golden parachutes for the top floor people, they can apply the same logic to the people who actually work

 

[2009ring]

In the same interview where Daggett talked about crippling the economy posted above he also gave the examples of how everyone used to have to wait to pay a toll to a union worker but now they can just zip through with EZ Pass. He thinks that's a bad thing, to be clear.

There's a big difference between "We deserve higher wages" vs "We want to make everyone else's life worse"

I'm typically pro-worker and anti-big corporation, but this Daggett guy is simply too much. Can't get behind his hypocrisy and mafioso attitude.