Saints candidates Kellen Moore, Joe Brady [and Kliff Kingsbury] compared to Ben Johnson in offensive rankings (1 Viewer)

[football]

I wasn’t commenting on the city. I was talking specifically about the Saints organization with a lack of talent and lots of needs.

If Ben Johnson turned/turns down an opportunity with the Saints, that’s ok. No hard feelings here. I’m sure that Detroit job he took wasn’t considered easy at the time.

I don't have any problem him not wanting to come here. Everyone has a preference. But I feel he might be over hyped and might not be the best hire of all the new coaches.

 

[Snakehead]

I wasn’t commenting on the city. I was talking specifically about the Saints organization with a lack of talent and lots of needs.

If Ben Johnson turned/turns down an opportunity with the Saints, that’s ok. No hard feelings here. I’m sure that Detroit job he took wasn’t considered easy at the time.

Yeah, I know. I was talking about more of the people as a whole. There's a lot of "we want the shiny new thing", but really we need someone who wants to take on the job and it's not going to be easy. We need a HC who is willing to take it on b/c it's going to be a hard job.

Johnson was hired as a Quality Control Coach under Matt Patricia, retained as the TE coach when Campbell took the job. The following year he promoted to Passing Game Coordinator and then a year later promoted to OC. So he joined a bad team when he was an entry level coach, stayed on as a low level coach during a regime change and them move up as the talent level increased before finally taking over when it was a near complete offense. The players on that team are Dan Campbell players. Now, he's looking for a perfect situation where a foundation of players is already in place before leaves where he's at. I see a theme here and it's not one of a team/culture builder, but more of a guy looking for that perfect, just inserted HC, ready made job. If that's the case, he's not our guy. We need the guy who is willing to build the team and the culture.

 

[Rouxble]

Yeah, I know. I was talking about more of the people as a whole. There's a lot of "we want the shiny new thing", but really we need someone who wants to take on the job and it's not going to be easy. We need a HC who is willing to take it on b/c it's going to be a hard job.

Johnson was hired as a Quality Control Coach under Matt Patricia, retained as the TE coach when Campbell took the job. The following year he promoted to Passing Game Coordinator and then a year later promoted to OC. So he joined a bad team when he was an entry level coach, stayed on as a low level coach during a regime change and them move up as the talent level increased before finally taking over when it was a near complete offense. The players on that team are Dan Campbell players. Now, he's looking for a perfect situation where a foundation of players is already in place before leaves where he's at. I see a theme here and it's not one of a team/culture builder, but more of a guy looking for that perfect, just inserted HC, ready made job. If that's the case, he's not our guy. We need the guy who is willing to build the team and the culture.

Johnson has said he wants a job where there's a high chance of a second contract, this isn't that job.

 

[3ParStillDriver]

This is a really difficult thing to go by because of the talent of each roster. Joe Brady hasn't had much to work with. Its not like the Bills are swimming in talent at any position other then QB, and they're doing better with less at WR then previous years. On the other hand you have Ben Johnson clearly leading the better offense that is utterly stacked with talent across the board. They have 2 RB's who could start for most NFL rosters and two WR's that would be WR1's in most rosters. Also a top 10 TE and an Oline that is all first round picks (I think one of em may have been a 2nd or 3rd).

On the other hand, you have Moore. I find him to be very underwhelming. Stats aside, he had quite some talent with the Chargers, and their offense kept disappointing. Now he's with the Eagles, and aside from Barkley, their passing attack has been lackluster eerily similar to the Chargers. I'm just not impressed with Kellen Moore at all. It's not a coincidence that someone else takes over the Chargers, lose a key WR1 and a key RB1 and somehow immediately are doing much better offensively.

 

[Snakehead]

Johnson has said he wants a job where there's a high chance of a second contract, this isn't that job.

Yeah, not our guy then. Our guy would be someone who was confident in their ability to turn an organization around a lead a team earning a second contract.

 

[jahsoul357]

2) Joe Brady. I know, he is fortunate to work with Joe Burrow and now with Josh Allen. But what impress me is his commitment to the run game. If Brady is able to build a solid offensive line, he will have success wherever he goes.

This is something that I was stating yesterday. Everybody is like "but Joe Brady has Josh Allen" not realizing that the Bills offense is driven off of the run game. Nothing that Josh Allen is doing this season with his arm is overly impressive.

The thing about Joe Brady is if he actually worked on the RZ and 2 minute offense in Carolina, that season with Teddy B would have been the best offensive showing he has had, and that's without CMC being the focal point of the offense. When you realize that the 2020 Panthers had 2 1k yard receivers, 1 receiver with 850 yards, 4 players with over 1k yards of total offense, they lost 8 games by a single score, while having one of the worst RZ offenses in the NFL. it shows that Joe Brady (and especially Teddy B) wasn't a slouch. He just needed experience and to work on those few things. Thankfully, bad organizations are always shortsighted...lol

 

[SAINT BIGAL]

This is something that I was stating yesterday. Everybody is like "but Joe Brady has Josh Allen" not realizing that the Bills offense is driven off of the run game. Nothing that Josh Allen is doing this season with his arm is overly impressive.

The thing about Joe Brady is if he actually worked on the RZ and 2 minute offense in Carolina, that season with Teddy B would have been the best offensive showing he has had, and that's without CMC being the focal point of the offense. When you realize that the 2020 Panthers had 2 1k yard receivers, 1 receiver with 850 yards, 4 players with over 1k yards of total offense, they lost 8 games by a single score, while having one of the worst RZ offenses in the NFL. it shows that Joe Brady (and especially Teddy B) wasn't a slouch. He just needed experience and to work on those few things. Thankfully, bad organizations are always shortsighted...lol

Joe Brady is becoming more and more intriguing. And has experience with a small market team (if that matters). As mentioned by others, we’re going to need a coach that has something to prove!

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I wasn’t commenting on the city. I was talking specifically about the Saints organization with a lack of talent and lots of needs.

If Ben Johnson turned/turns down an opportunity with the Saints, that’s ok. No hard feelings here. I’m sure that Detroit job he took wasn’t considered easy at the time.

He was still making a name for himself, the names been made now. He an afford to be picky

 

[bayoumilitia]

Thanks for the detailed breakdown. In my opinion though what a lot of it comes down to with all of these guys is the personnel that they have, health (so strength and conditioning matters) and complimentary football. We can’t underestimate how big turnover differential matters or translates to an OCs success. Buffalo is +24 this year. I mean if Joe Brady and Josh Allen can’t win at least 10 games in a horrible division with that turnover margin then damn. Ben Johnson also benefits from a defensive unit that seems to be able to hang with 3rd string guys. Once again complimentary football. I’m sure that their offensive rankings are directly tied to turnover differential, defensive rankings, special team rankings or a combination of all three.

Interesting comparisons between the 3 OCs. Ben Johnson has put himself in a class of his own in his first 3 years. But Moore and Brady aren’t that far behind season to season. Moore had very similar rankings to Johnson in his first 3 years of OC. One of the main differences seems to be Johnson has younger elite core players at QB/RB/WR/TE from the start of his OC tenure, compared to Moore and Brady getting the most out of midlevel-aging players at skill positions. Either seems like they could be a good HC hire if they’re provided with good personnel from the draft.


Age
Ben Johnson: 38
Kellen Moore: 36
Joe Brady: 35

Player background before coaching career
Ben Johnson: walk-on reserve QB at UNC 2004-2007
Kellen Moore: 3x conference OPOY; 2x QBOY; SN’s #1 player (‘11); Heisman finalist Boise State QB 2007-2011; backup NFL QB with Lions and Cowboys 2012-2017
Joe Brady: backup WR at College of William & Mary 2009-2012

Years as OC in NFL
Ben Johnson: 3
Kellen Moore: 6
Joe Brady: 3.5

Head Coaches that they were OCs under
Ben Johnson: Dan Campbell
Kellen Moore: Mike McCarthy, Brandon Staley, Nick Sirianni
Joe Brady: Matt Rhule, Sean McDermott


Team records while OC in NFL
Ben Johnson: 36-15 (.705)
2022: 9-8 Detroit
2023: 12-5 Detroit lost in NFCCG
2024: 14-3 Detroit TBD

Kellen Moore: 57-43 (.570)
2019: 8-8 Dallas
2020: 6-10 Dallas
2021: 12-5 Dallas lost in wild card
2022: 12-5 Dallas lost in divisional
2023: 5-12 LA Chargers
2024: 14-3 Philadelphia TBD

Joe Brady: 29-28 (.508)
2020: 5-11 Carolina
2021: 5-12 Carolina
2023: 6-1 Buffalo lost in divisional
2024: 13-4 Buffalo TBD


Total offense per season
Ben Johnson:
2022: 4th - 380.0
2023: 3rd - 394.8
2024: 2nd - 409.5
(Avg rank: 3rd) (Avg yards: 394.8)

Kellen Moore:
2019: 1st - 431.5
2020: 14th - 371.8
2021: 1st - 407.0
2022: 11th - 354.9
2023: 18th - 329.4
2024: 8th - 367.2
(Avg rank: 9th) (Avg yards: 376.97)

Joe Brady:
2020: 21st - 349.5
2021: 30th - 298.9
2023: 4th - 380.7 (7 games)
2024: 10th - 359.1
(Avg rank: 16th) (Avg yards: 347.05)


Passing offense per season
Ben Johnson:
2022: 8th - 251.8
2023: 2nd - 258.9
2024: 2nd - 263.2
(Avg rank: 3rd) (Avg yards: 257.97)

Kellen Moore:
2019: 2nd - 296.9
2020: 8th - 260.1
2021: 2nd - 282.4
2022: 14th - 219.8
2023: 13th - 232.8
2024: 29th - 187.9
(Avg rank: 11th) (Avg yards: 246.65)

Joe Brady:
2020: 18th - 243.0
2021: 29th - 190.5
2023: 14th - 231.1 (7 games)
2024: 9th - 227.9
(Avg rank: 18th) (Avg yards: 223.1)


Rushing offense per season
Ben Johnson:
2022: 11th - 128.2
2023: 5th - 135.9
2024: 6th - 146.4
(Avg rank - 7th) (Avg yards - 136.83)

Kellen Moore:
2019: 5th - 134.6
2020: 17th - 111.8
2021: 9th - 124.6
2022: 9th - 135.2
2023: 25th - 96.6
2024: 2nd - 179.3
(Avg rank - 11th) (Avg yards - 130.35)

Joe Brady:
2020: 21st - 106.5
2021: 20th - 108.4
2023: 2nd - 149.6 (7 games)
2024: 9th - 131.2
(Avg rank - 13th) (Avg yards - 123.9)


Scoring per season
Ben Johnson:
2022: 5th - 26.6
2023: 5th - 27.1
2024: 1st - 33.2
(Avg rank - 4th) (Avg points - 29)

Kellen Moore:
2019: 6th - 27.1
2020: 17th - 24.7
2021: 1st - 31.2
2022: 4th - 27.5
2023: 21st - 20.4
2024: 7th - 27.2
(Avg rank - 9th) (Avg points - 26.35)

Joe Brady:
2020: 24th - 21.9
2021: 29th - 17.9
2023: 6th - 27 (7 games)
2024: 2nd - 30.9
(Avg rank - 15th) (Avg points - 24.4)


Redzone TD scoring per season
Ben Johnson:
2022: 4th - 66.18%
2023: 2nd - 66.67%
2024: 3rd - 69.44%
(Avg rank - 3rd) (Avg pct - 67.43%)

Kellen Moore:
2019: 16th - 57.41%
2020: T-29th - 50%
2021: 6th - 63.64%
2022: 1st - 71.43%
2023: 14th - 57.45%
2024: 13th - 57.35%
(Avg rank - 13th) (Avg pct - 59.54%)

Joe Brady:
2020: 28th - 50.88%
2021: 25th - 53.19%
2023: 4th - 63.89%
2024: 2nd - 74.4%
(Avg rank - 15th) (Avg pct - 60.59%)


Passing TDs per season
Ben Johnson:
2022: T-6th - 1.7
2023: T-6th - 1.7
2024: 4th - 2.3
(Avg rank - 5th) (Avg pTDs - 1.9)

Kellen Moore:
2019: T-5th - 1.9
2020: T-18th - 1.6
2021: 3rd - 2.3
2022: T-6th - 1.7
2023: T-16th - 1.4
2024: T-12th - 1.4
(Avg rank - 10th) (Avg pTDs - 1.7)

Joe Brady:
2020: T-28th - 1.0
2021: 31st - 0.8
2023: T-6th - 1.7
2024: T-7th - 1.8
(Avg rank - 18th) (Avg pTDs - 1.3)


Rushing TDs per season
Ben Johnson:
2022: 2nd - 1.4
2023: 1st - 1.7
2024: T-2nd - 1.7
(Avg rank - 2nd) (Avg rTDs - 1.6)

Kellen Moore:
2019: T-9th - 1.1
2020: T-18th - 0.9
2021: T-14th - 0.9
2022: 3rd - 1.3
2023: T-21st - 0.6
2024: T-2nd - 1.7
(Avg rank - 11th) (Avg rTDs - 1.08)

Joe Brady:
2020: T-10th - 1.2
2021: 13th - 1.0
2023: 5th - 1.3
2024: 1st - 1.7
(Avg rank - 7th) (Avg rTDs - 1.3)


Top offensive playmakers while OC
Ben Johnson: QB Jared Goff, RB Jahmyr Gibbs, RB David Montgomery, RB Jamaal Williams, RB D’Andre Swift, WR Amon-Ra St. Brown, WR Jameson Williams, TE Sam LaPorta

Kellen Moore: QB Dak Prescott, QB Jalen Hurts, QB Justin Herbert, RB Saquon Barkley, RB Ezekiel Elliott, RB Tony Pollard, RB Austin Ekeler, WR Ceedee Lamb, WR A.J. Brown, WR DeVonta Smith, WR Keenan Allen, WR Mike Williams, TE Dallas Goedert

Joe Brady: QB Josh Allen, QB Teddy Bridgewater, QB Sam Darnold, RB James Cook, RB Christian McCaffrey (10 games in Brady’s 2 Panthers years), RB Chuba Hubbard, WR Stefon Diggs, WR D.J. Moore, WR Robbie Chosen, WR Khalil Shakir, WR Keon Coleman, WR Amari Cooper, TE Dalton Kincaid

 

[No2DC]

If a HC can't see the opportunity the Saints job offers him, then he's not the right coach. The city, state, area and fans are hard working resilient fans who run toward people in need. That's what I remember growing up down there, in during/after Katrina, every other hurricane that has affected the area and most recently with the terrorist attack in the French Quarter. The team doesn't need a HC who is scared to take that on, the team needs a HC who runs toward the opportunity to help.

If Ben Johnson is turning down the hard jobs, then he can stay where he's at, he's obviously not built the same.

It's nothing personal; it's just business. I can't blame any candidate wanting to put themselves in the best position to succeed. That's why the Chargers job was so attractive last year; they already had one of the biggest pieces: the quarterback. We don't have a quarterback, our cap situation is dire, and we are an aging team. This is not a subjective assessment; it's the reality. We can just have to hope that the right type of guy is willing to try and get us out of a hole that's not as bad as it was after Katrina.

 

[bayoumilitia]

This is a really difficult thing to go by because of the talent of each roster. Joe Brady hasn't had much to work with. Its not like the Bills are swimming in talent at any position other then QB, and they're doing better with less at WR then previous years. On the other hand you have Ben Johnson clearly leading the better offense that is utterly stacked with talent across the board. They have 2 RB's who could start for most NFL rosters and two WR's that would be WR1's in most rosters. Also a top 10 TE and an Oline that is all first round picks (I think one of em may have been a 2nd or 3rd).

On the other hand, you have Moore. I find him to be very underwhelming. Stats aside, he had quite some talent with the Chargers, and their offense kept disappointing. Now he's with the Eagles, and aside from Barkley, their passing attack has been lackluster eerily similar to the Chargers. I'm just not impressed with Kellen Moore at all. It's not a coincidence that someone else takes over the Chargers, lose a key WR1 and a key RB1 and somehow immediately are doing much better offensively.

Mmmmm. So don’t be shocked if SP and Denver bounces Joe Brady and Josh Allen out of the playoffs this weekend. They beat them 24-22 last year in Buffalo and I’d argue that Denver’s D is better this year. Btw, Bo Nix has more passing yards and a higher completion percentage than Josh Allen soooooo. Look at who Buffalo beat and who they lost to this year. They barely beat an injury depleted Detroit team. I would argue that’s their only quality win. They lost a shoot out to the Rams, got beat by the Texans in Houston and beat down by the Ravens. The rest of their wins were meh. Jacksonville, Tennessee at home? Nothing special. So let’s see Joe Brady and Josh take care of business against Bo Nix and his former boss before we start considering him for our coaching position please.

I think he’s a good OC, definitely a good passing coordinator but HC in the NFL? I’m not so sure just yet.

 

[Snakehead]

It's nothing personal; it's just business. I can't blame any candidate wanting to put themselves in the best position to succeed. That's why the Chargers job was so attractive last year; they already had one of the biggest pieces: the quarterback. We don't have a quarterback, our cap situation is dire, and we are an aging team. This is not a subjective assessment; it's the reality. We can just have to hope that the right type of guy is willing to try and get us out of a hole that's not as bad as it was after Katrina.

He can do what he wants. He's looking for the easier path and that's all I need to know.

Next.

 

[kbraun228]

Brady might have an edge since he’s already been a coach for the Saints and then went on to coach the legendary Burrow/Chase/Jefferson championship LSU squad. I think it will be between he and Aaron Glenn because Loomis clearly values familiarity and previous relationships.

 

[St. Geezy]

Joe Brady, the man, is not what you guys think he is. It’s really difficult to envision him as a NFL HC, leading a full locker room of players and coaches, and that’s not just me saying that.

This is more a due diligence, courtesy interview IMO.

Would love to be proven wrong on this and see the kid show he’s matured a lot and knock it out of the park.

For his sake, he better hope other HC needy teams aren’t calling SP for his opinion.

I could see him being a HC at the FBS college level currently, maybe.