{2023 Thread Bumped} Underhill Giving No Quarter to Nick Wright (1 Viewer)

[St. Geezy]

I think Hendrickson is also in that same category as Elliss and Davenport and to some extent Armstead. They all have had significant availability issues. Our being tight to the cap means we have to be more judicious in where our more limited money goes, and it absolutely cannot go to players who have a high risk of not being available. No doubt that factored into thinking then, as it does now.

Makes you wonder about Michael Thomas and the approach that will be taken with him, assuming someone else doesn't waft lotsa bills under his nose and takes a bet he'll be fine and pay him as such.

Agreed. I have made that point to him before also, but he chooses to ignore it.

We had a borderline Hall of Famer at one end spot, and had invested two firsts into Davenport, and had a reasonable belief that he was ascending and we'd have to pay him, so we opted not to give a big money deal to Hendrickson, whose only great year with us was his contract year.

I have used this line many times, but many people are confusing poor/regrettable personnel decisions with cap issues. And they're also confusing cap issues with UNPRECEDENTED GLOBAL PANDEMIC reeking havoc on our "living on the edge" plan at the exact wrong time, two years ago.

 

[Boy_of_wonder75]

I identify that opposing view because, for every free agent that we let walk from the Saints or don’t pick up from other teams, it’s because Loomis just didn’t want to do it. He could have written any contract he wanted, but he didn’t like the price.

For instance, it has been claimed in the past that we could have signed Hendrickson to the same contract he got from the Bengals if we wanted to, I showed how that was objectively false.

And honestly, if not for Deshaun Watson, we probably keep Marcus Williams. Watson left us at the altar, and Williams was gone by the time it happened. The Jets (and even Packers) may similarly miss out on free agents while waiting to see if Aaron Rodgers will come down the aisle.

It is what it is at this point, but to me, it’s ok to say “because we have these other guys, we couldn’t sign this specific guy.”

Instead, the players that we let walk are terrible, while the players that other teams let walk were just undervalued by their former teams.

You are arguing against claims people are not making, by and large.

 

[DaveXA]

The recent dip is also tied into some historically awful injury luck. We set the record in 2021 for having the most players start a game in a single season. If that 2021 team had even mediocre injury luck, that's a playoff team.

Indeed, good point.

 

[Belfast Saint]

Agreed. I have made that point to him before also, but he chooses to ignore it.

We had a borderline Hall of Famer at one end spot, and had invested two firsts into Davenport, and had a reasonable belief that he was ascending and we'd have to pay him, so we opted not to give a big money deal to Hendrickson, whose only great year with us was his contract year.

I have used this line many times, but many people are confusing poor/regrettable personnel decisions with cap issues. And they're also confusing cap issues with UNPRECEDENTED GLOBAL PANDEMIC reeking havoc on our "living on the edge" plan at the exact wrong time, two years ago.

There is a world in which you could easily have kept Hendrickson because you have enough cap room to do so. But that necessitates that you've largely been holding back cap, which means you aren't maximising your talent. It's no real surprise that most of the teams with lots of cap room are bad...not all, but most.

 

[DaveXA]

I identify that opposing view because, for every free agent that we let walk from the Saints or don’t pick up from other teams, it’s because Loomis just didn’t want to do it. He could have written any contract he wanted, but he didn’t like the price.

For instance, it has been claimed in the past that we could have signed Hendrickson to the same contract he got from the Bengals if we wanted to, I showed how that was objectively false.

And honestly, if not for Deshaun Watson, we probably keep Marcus Williams. Watson left us at the altar, and Williams was gone by the time it happened. The Jets (and even Packers) may similarly miss out on free agents while waiting to see if Aaron Rodgers will come down the aisle.

It is what it is at this point, but to me, it’s ok to say “because we have these other guys, we couldn’t sign this specific guy.”

Instead, the players that we let walk are terrible, while the players that other teams let walk were just undervalued by their former teams.

It's absolutely not objectively false because you have zero idea what Loomis would have done to make it work. And fwiw, neither do I. There's really little objectivity in your posts rebuttals as much as you'd like to think you are.

 

[DaveXA]

so its not an infinite thing.

A hundred years might as well be.

 

[DaveXA]

Saints sign literally the highest paid free agent on the open market - "Meh, that's irresponsible cap management"

Saints re-sign key players like J.T. Gray, Tanoh Kpassagnon, and Juwan Johnson - "Meh, whatever"

Saints allow three average to below average defensive linemen walk from a run defense that was bad last year to sign big money, day 1 of free agency deals - "See, this cap mismanagement is killing us!!!"

Yeah, clearly there's an agenda driving that type of discussion. You can't reason with unexplained hatred.

 

[Rouxble]

If your best example for this is Hendrickson, a player who became a free agent at the exact same time the rest of his stellar draft class did, at a time when there just so happened to be a global pandemic that resulted in a net $25m to $30m negative swing on the cap, then I think I feel good about my position.

That was an extreme anomaly set of circumstances, and yet it's your favorite go-to example. That's saying something.

It’s an example of the cap limiting us, it doesn’t matter what the circumstances were. It refutes the idea that we can sign anyone at any time. The Williams example is another one, although that’s more Watson’s fault, similar to how Rodgers is holding the Packers and Jets hostage.

Again, Loomis managed the cap much differently prior to 2020, and he is on record saying he wants to get the cap back to normal. Once we are out of the restructuring cycle we’re stuck in, I’m sure he will get us there.

And for the record, he is probably doing the best he can with the constraints we have.

 

[DaveXA]

i do believe it was NFC south titles we won in a row.

He's just old school.

 

[DaveXA]

Agreed. I have made that point to him before also, but he chooses to ignore it.

We had a borderline Hall of Famer at one end spot, and had invested two firsts into Davenport, and had a reasonable belief that he was ascending and we'd have to pay him, so we opted not to give a big money deal to Hendrickson, whose only great year with us was his contract year.

I have used this line many times, but many people are confusing poor/regrettable personnel decisions with cap issues. And they're also confusing cap issues with UNPRECEDENTED GLOBAL PANDEMIC reeking havoc on our "living on the edge" plan at the exact wrong time, two years ago.

Yeah, hindsight is a beautiful thing for the naysayers, and drives me batty. Lol.

 

[St. Geezy]

It’s an example of the cap limiting us, it doesn’t matter what the circumstances were.

And this likely ends my participation in this discussion. If the best you can do is "The Saints didn't factor in a global pandemic that unexpectedly created a $30+ million gap into their long term financial planning for a year," then I don't know what else to say.

The team does have a lot of leeway with the cap, but that still doesn't mean they are immune to making personnel decisions or can keep every single player. You know, basically like every other team.

 

[Rouxble]

You are arguing against claims people are not making, by and large.

Those claims are made regularly. Onyemata gone? He’s a bum. Hendrickson gone? He was let go for injury concerns.

The injury excuse only goes one way though, because we signed Maye coming off an Achilles injury with a looming DUI suspension.

I think there is plenty of common ground to be had, the last time I got tied up posting on this topic I said I’m all in favor of discussing how the Saints operate within the constraints, but I’m not going to act like the constraints don’t exist.

 

[Rouxble]

And this likely ends my participation in this discussion. If the best you can do is "The Saints didn't factor in a global pandemic that unexpectedly created a $30+ million gap into their long term financial planning for a year," then I don't know what else to say.

The team does have a lot of leeway with the cap, but that still doesn't mean they are immune to making personnel decisions or can keep every single player. You know, basically like every other team.

Here goes the pandemic excuse again. The Saints would have been $70m over the cap without the pandemic, assuming a generous 10% cap increase in 2021, another fact posted many times that gets ignored.

 

[St. Geezy]

Here goes the pandemic excuse again. The Saints would have been $70m over the cap without the pandemic, assuming a generous 10% cap increase in 2021, another fact posted many times that gets ignored.

Still doesn't change the fact that there was an estimated $30 million missing from the books that they thought they'd have.

You're just being hard-headed at this stage.

 

[St. Geezy]

Hendrickson gone? He was let go for injury concerns.

This is just more strawman stuff, your favorite mode of operation.

People have given you multiple reasons why Hendrickson was not retained, but you flat-out dumb it down to a singular thing that no one has actually said as a singular thing.