Article About the Evolution of the Shanahan System and What Makes it Work (2 Viewers)

[Rouxble]

Bill Walsh's offense wasn't centered around motion and short passes per se. His offense was based on timing, precision, and execution. Modern offenses are centered around short passes to speedy players, yes, but not in the same way. Today's game is based on spacing and not timing. QBs need to be accurate, yes but precision, not as much. That's why our offense seemed "outdated." When you look at the modern NFL, the best QBs are the ones that are throwing to wide open receivers with nothing but space around them. When you look at Bill Walsh's and Shanahan's offense, they are nothing alike. You can just look at any 49ers game from the 80s and 90s and you'll see the ball come out at the end of their drop the vast majority of the time. Shanahan? Not as much but you see a lot of short passes to receivers in space..LOL

I think there are more similarities than differences. The best QB’s are still the ones that can throw on time and make tight window throws. Every OC is trying to scheme guys wide open, but it’s not possible on every pass play unless you’re playing against a terrible defense. Windows tend to close as fast as they open, particularly on third down where the threat of the run is minimal.

If you watch the 49ers drop back passing game, the ball still gets fired out at the top of the QB’s drop if the first read is there. If defenses get aggressive on those initial reads, Shanahan has alerts and constraints that take advantage of those adjustments, which creates some of the wide open looks that make the highlight reels.

 

[Belfast Saint]

So I read the article and think I sorta understand it.

The classic Shanahan offense is very much Wide zone- counter - bootleg centric. The wide zone is core, the bootleg and and counter act as counter punches which look the same as the wide zone and attack the backside end in different ways to keep him honest. Houston ran something very close to this with Arian Foster. When defenders see certain movement, they act quickly to defend against the wide zone, putting them out of position for the counter punches.

What Shanahan the younger is doing is maintaining elements of that core, but now is more often achieving the same effect (of getting defenders out of position) by manipulating the defenses with pre-snap formational threat and motion, enabled by a group of players with multi-positional flexibility.

 

[Rouxble]

What Shanahan the younger is doing is maintaining elements of that core, but now is more often achieving the same effect (of getting defenders out of position) by manipulating the defenses with pre-snap formational threat and motion, enabled by a group of players with multi-positional flexibility.

That’s a good way of putting it, particularly the part about how his group of players enable some elements of the scheme. In 2022, they averaged 20 points/game and were 3-3 before McCaffrey. After trading for him, they averaged 30 points/game and went 10-1.

I think all teams are attempting some version of showing one look and delivering a different play, the schemes diverge (as they should) based on the players you have available. If we try to copy the 49ers 2023 offense, we will likely fail, it needs to be adapted to the personnel we have.

Pat Kirwan has said for years that having a big three (dynamic RB, versatile TE, strong X) is what allows teams to abuse defenses. There’s a legitimate run/pass threat on every play, and defenses don’t have enough guys to keep all three guys in check. Someone is getting a plus matchup.

You could argue that Shanahan has a big five with the inclusion of versatile players at Z and FB, but they needed a dynamic RB to completely unlock that group. We are lacking a versatile TE, and are currently accepting applications for a strong X.

 

[Boy_of_wonder75]

Pat Kirwan has said for years that having a big three (dynamic RB, versatile TE, strong X) is what allows teams to abuse defenses. There’s a legitimate run/pass threat on every play, and defenses don’t have enough guys to keep all three guys in check. Someone is getting a plus matchup.

You could argue that Shanahan has a big five with the inclusion of versatile players at Z and FB, but they needed a dynamic RB to completely unlock that group. We are lacking a versatile TE, and are currently accepting applications for a strong X.

This is why I don't think Hill goes anywhere. He is not George Kittle, but he gets open and is a willing blocker. He can also lineup as a fullback and offers some flexibility there in both the run and passing game. A creative play designer should be able to create matchup nightmares with the current Saints personnel.

*Edit* I never understood why Hill wasn't lined up as a fullback more often last year, especially in pro sets. Both he and Kamara are good runners without a lead blocker so the ball could have gone to either and both are great at catching the ball from the backfield. There were so many possibilities left on the table which was frustrating to watch.

 

[Rouxble]

This is why I don't think Hill goes anywhere. He is not George Kittle, but he gets open and is a willing blocker. He can also lineup as a fullback and offers some flexibility there in both the run and passing game. A creative play designer should be able to create matchup nightmares with the current Saints personnel.

*Edit* I never understood why Hill wasn't lined up as a fullback more often last year, especially in pro sets. Both he and Kamara are good runners without a lead blocker so the ball could have gone to either and both are great at catching the ball from the backfield. There were so many possibilities left on the table which was frustrating to watch.

I think some are trying to place Hill into a role in Shanahan’s offense (can he be our Juszczyk or Deebo) versus looking at ways for him to carve out his own role. I think he can pick up the running elements of Deebo’s game and the receiving elements of Juszczyk’s game and carve out his own hybrid role. Don’t ask him to run the full WR route tree, and don’t ask him to take on big blocks like a true FB.

 

[Belfast Saint]

That’s a good way of putting it, particularly the part about how his group of players enable some elements of the scheme. In 2022, they averaged 20 points/game and were 3-3 before McCaffrey. After trading for him, they averaged 30 points/game and went 10-1.

I think all teams are attempting some version of showing one look and delivering a different play, the schemes diverge (as they should) based on the players you have available. If we try to copy the 49ers 2023 offense, we will likely fail, it needs to be adapted to the personnel we have.

Pat Kirwan has said for years that having a big three (dynamic RB, versatile TE, strong X) is what allows teams to abuse defenses. There’s a legitimate run/pass threat on every play, and defenses don’t have enough guys to keep all three guys in check. Someone is getting a plus matchup.

You could argue that Shanahan has a big five with the inclusion of versatile players at Z and FB, but they needed a dynamic RB to completely unlock that group. We are lacking a versatile TE, and are currently accepting applications for a strong X.

Yes, agreed, the personnel we have (and gain) will be/should be pivotal in the shaping of the offense. We will be different from the 49ers because our personnel are different. If we just try cookie cutter approach, we will struggle and that's the challenge for Kubiak and why it will be interesting to see how it pans out.

 

[Rouxble]

This is a great article about the evolution of the Shanahan system and what makes it work. It stresses that the offense is really about dictating how the defense plays you and being able to run lots of different plays out of the same look. It also talks about the importance of RBs who can line up at WR, FBs that can line up at TE, TEs that can line up at WR, and WRs that can line up at RB. We have all of that for KK to use other than maybe the WR that can lineup at RB, but maybe Taysom Hill works in that role?

Anyway, there is much more in here than I can explain or write about:

Kyle Shanahan Is No Longer Running the Shanahan Offense

Play-action passes. Pre-snap motion. Wide-zone runs. Think you know the core tenets of the offense that has defined the recent history of the NFL? The man who popularized it has evolved—here’s what he’s doing instead.

www.theringer.com

Interesting comments on the Shanahan offense that I found.

Shanahan talked about specific multi-receiver sets, featuring running backs in unusual spots, that keyed defensive intent. "It's no accident that the offensive formation we used three seasons ago," he said then, "with our normal offensive personnel lining up in a five-wide receiver set — has shown up around the league. By lining up our wide receivers inside and our running backs outside, we were able to see, before the snap, whether the defense would be in man or zone coverage. The quarterback was able to get a pre-snap read, giving him a distinct advantage. Now, other teams look for that advantage. They have duplicated the formation." This example calls for the lead back to motion into the backfield after the defense's intent is deduced. While Jim Zorn's version of the West Coast offense alternated between staid conservatism and ineffective trickery for its own sake, Shanahan's experience with formation and personnel diversity allows him to bring a more varied palette to the game.

Fun fact, the above is actually about Mike Shanahan, referenced from a book about him written in 1999.

 

[St. Widge]

Interesting comments on the Shanahan offense that I found.


Fun fact, the above is actually about Mike Shanahan, referenced from a book about him written in 1999.

Interesting. Kyle gets all the credit, but it's clear that the real roots here are from Mike a long time ago and it's interesting that some of these ideas have become so wide spread that we don't realize that Mike was the source. I recall watching Shanahan's Broncos and that outside zone running attack was amazing, but I think I was too young and too inexperienced to see the details of how that offense worked. I guess I always assumed it was just because Elway and Terrell Davis were very good.

And, it's also interesting that Gary Kubiak was Mike's OC. So, hopefully a lot of this kind of thinking was passed down to Klint.

 

[St. Widge]

Yes, agreed, the personnel we have (and gain) will be/should be pivotal in the shaping of the offense. We will be different from the 49ers because our personnel are different. If we just try cookie cutter approach, we will struggle and that's the challenge for Kubiak and why it will be interesting to see how it pans out.

No doubt you have to fit the offense to your personnel. I'm just looking to identify guys we have that can credibly line up in multiple positions because it appears that in addition to all the motion and outside zone, a corner stone of the new system is likely to be using formations with versatile players to dictate how the defense will play you so that you can try to get the defense in a base while you are passing and in nickel/dime while you are running. It won't necessarily be looking for a "Deebo" or a "Kittle" but a guy like Hill who can credibly line up out wide and then motion into the backfield or the reserve, would help with that disguise. As would a guy like Bowden.

But, yeah, the system varies based on the players. For instance, Miami runs this system well without great blockers at WR and without the versatile TE.

 

[saintmike23]

In knowing now that Arthur Smith comes from the Shanahan tree (learned under Matt LaFleur in TN before LaFleur left), it makes sense that every time we played the Titans I felt like I was watching the same thing over and over. Guess I didn't notice it as much against the Falcons in his time there, though.

Not all innovation is good

Idk how you don’t feature your best players and expect to win. Arthur Smith just had some quirks to that offense that didn’t work.

 

[Rexman100]

That’s a good way of putting it, particularly the part about how his group of players enable some elements of the scheme. In 2022, they averaged 20 points/game and were 3-3 before McCaffrey. After trading for him, they averaged 30 points/game and went 10-1.

I think all teams are attempting some version of showing one look and delivering a different play, the schemes diverge (as they should) based on the players you have available. If we try to copy the 49ers 2023 offense, we will likely fail, it needs to be adapted to the personnel we have.

Pat Kirwan has said for years that having a big three (dynamic RB, versatile TE, strong X) is what allows teams to abuse defenses. There’s a legitimate run/pass threat on every play, and defenses don’t have enough guys to keep all three guys in check. Someone is getting a plus matchup.

You could argue that Shanahan has a big five with the inclusion of versatile players at Z and FB, but they needed a dynamic RB to completely unlock that group. We are lacking a versatile TE, and are currently accepting applications for a strong X.

agreed, the point is, we need WR's that can play RB. FB's that can catch and TE's that can do both. After rewatching the Saints superbowl the other day, i noticed something that I think we dont do anymore. And that is decoy pre-snap motion.

 

[StudioSaint]

No doubt you have to fit the offense to your personnel. I'm just looking to identify guys we have that can credibly line up in multiple positions because it appears that in addition to all the motion and outside zone, a corner stone of the new system is likely to be using formations with versatile players to dictate how the defense will play you so that you can try to get the defense in a base while you are passing and in nickel/dime while you are running. It won't necessarily be looking for a "Deebo" or a "Kittle" but a guy like Hill who can credibly line up out wide and then motion into the backfield or the reserve, would help with that disguise. As would a guy like Bowden.

But, yeah, the system varies based on the players. For instance, Miami runs this system well without great blockers at WR and without the versatile TE.

I agree. I think Hill's versatility can be used to get similar production as Deebo and Kittle, but I think how Hill can be used to get that production is different from those two.

What I'm hoping for is that next season under Kubiak, the NFL world can't stop gushing over Kamara and Hill, like they do over Deebo and Kittle. The pair of players are not the same, but I think they are capable of being just as productive due to their incredible versatility stemming from multiple skillsets and dedication to working hard.