Character vs Talent (2 Viewers)

[Loco Hornet Fan]

I used to play several sports competitively and even two collegiately. I can tell you right now that I would much rather have a talented player with an attitude than a guy with all the heart in the world. Heart can only get you so far, and more often than not its talent that wins out when it comes to making a roster. Don't get me wrong, character is an important factor in CERTAIN processes when choosing someone in the draft. But when it comes to an established veteran, all any team cares about is that they know the player in question can get it done on the field a la Randy Moss this year with the Pats. One thing a lot of people don't like to accept is that the NFL, ultimately, is a business and losing is equivalent to losing money. The owners could care less if a murderer is on their team as long as they win for them (see Leonard Little). Fellas to quote my dad, "The Almighty Dollar Always Wins Out."

I don't mind having a talented player with an attitude, it's just that I don't like any of the names that have been brought up recently.

There was the Pacman Jones thread, and we all know how bad bringing him in looks right now. There is a difference between having a bad attitude and getting arrested/suspended. I also disagree that owners would welcome "a murderer" on the team if he was a good player. Michael Vick killed dogs and is out of football, mabe forever.

Again, a bad attitude I can put up with. That means being late for meetings, sometimes spouting off to the media or doing something stupid in their spare time. But guys like Chris Henry, Pacman, even Tank Johnson, are huge risks because of their likely-hood to get suspended.

As for Hall, he's just not good enough (in my opinion) to be getting so much money and to be such of a problem in the locker room. If he were as good as someone like Champ Baily, then I could probably over look it. But Hall isn't even close to that level of corner back.

 

[St. PJ]

This seemed to be approach during the Haslett era--get the physically talented low character guys in FA and through the draft and build a Championship team. Names that come quickly to mind are: Albert Connell, Dale Carter, and draft picks like Talman Gardner and Adrian McPherson.

I'm not saying FA's and draft picks don't overcome previous troubles--look at Moss and Sapp. However, I would prefer to take my chances with high character guys like Duece, Brees, Pierre Thomas, Colston, Jhari Evans than roll the dice and revisit the Haslett era. Look only as far as the Bengals for perhaps the most physically talented team in the NFL as a prime example of the effect character issues have on winning.

I am sorry, but I detested every single name you have listed in the first paragraph. Not only did they have bad character, but like the FA's Carter, Connell, Sloan, and more were well past their prime and on their last leg anyway. I thought it was a joke because the FO would then say something ludiricrous like "In signing David Sloan, we have a Jeremy Shockeylike tight end" -- this of course right after we sign Sloan and right before draft with Shockey. I do agree Haslett went after physically talented, low character guys; but he pursued the idiotic ones who could not put it together in the NFL or were well past their prime like Dale Carter. Haslett didn't place a premium on football smarts and went after guys with just physical tools who looked good in their underwear. I am not saying Payton should throw caution to the wind, just that who playing cornerback other than Samuels and the guys getting (presumably) the franchise tag will be available? Consider we probably need two and I really don't see any of starting calibur available to us. I see plenty who have started but none who seem worthy, kind of like Craft and David.

I don't see Cincinatti anywhere close to being the most talented team, not even top 10 in talent. I'll say they are top 5 in QB/WR tandems, but they lack consistancy in the running game, a tight end, an entire defense, ect. I believe San Diego or Jacksonville are up their as the most talented teams from top to bottom. Too bad they haven't figured out how to beat the Patriots yet.

 

[Bill]

I think you create an atmosphere of 'character' in the locker room and when you take a person with suspect character, he either gets along or moves along. That's what the Pats did with Moss. That being said, if a guy isn't a comlete bafoon,and has talent,I think you could integrate him into the team. I think Payton is building just such an atmosphere in N.O.

I like this comment and I certainly agree with it. Though I would be nervous if we were to sign guys like Terrell Owens, Randy Moss and Chad Johnson, no one can argue with their obvious successes on their respective teams, and thus I think it is possible (not likely) to make great team players out of prima donnas.

Clearly, the issue of Character vs Talent will always be debated according to 'team needs' and 'player availability'. But certainly, when it comes to building a successful football team, you not only want to have both, you NEED to have both... and I sure hope we have the kind of front office that will make sure to build just such an organization now and for years to come.

 

[St. PJ]

Really this thread is my argument to go after a Hall or Haynesworth or even Chad Johnson. I am against players like Adam Jones and Chris Henry. Hall and Haynesworths problems happened on the field, and did not break any laws. Jones and Henry's problems happened outsided of football and broke the law. If you go back to guys like Randy Moss or even a TO (whom I cant stand), their problems either occur on the field or in the media--again, neither of which are illegal.

What I am getting at is some guys are branded selfish, cancers, or bad characters. Most are deserving of some form of negative attention or respite, some are not. I am not trying to argue any of that. Simply, some of these guys, like Randy Moss, could be the perfect teammate, hardest worker, and best contributer on a team like us where we have a Drew Brees and other guys who have set a standard on how to work and prepare. Chad Johnson for example, works harder than any WR on that team, studies diligently and does everything he can, yet he gets a bad rap becuase the Bengals tanked this year. I would welcome ocho cinco with open arms.

I suppose my real issue is a lack of patience. I have been patient for quite a while, but when it comes to getting a LB corp to replace the Dome Patrol or CB who can play at a probowl level, I have lost my patience. I understand the ideal of going after guys that play a certain role well-- smart high character overacheivers and such, and I am all for that. In the end though, especially in skill positions such as CB, you absolutely need a few STUDS on defense-- guys in their prime playing at a franchise tag level or a probowl level at least. We don't have that at any positon on defense. Will Smith is the closest thing we have to a probowler, and would be if our defensive lines pressure was consistant. I digress though. We have no LB or CB or S or DL that commands special attention on every play. We have no gamebreaker or playmaker who cuase serious problems for the oppositions offense. We have not had someone like that on defense since I was a kid, so I have lost my patience.

 

[BoNcHiE]

Really this thread is my argument to go after a Hall or Haynesworth or even Chad Johnson. I am against players like Adam Jones and Chris Henry. Hall and Haynesworths problems happened on the field, and did not break any laws.

Thats the problem. I don't want a player whos character issues show up on the field like Hall. Thats when it becomes a real problem. He hasn't shown any ability to control his emotions since the day he was drafted. This leads to penalties, blown plays, etc. and he is a big gambler who rarely has the common sense to do whats best for the team. One of the reasons he gets burned so much is because he is always trying to go after an INT to pad his personal stats.

 

[Guitarzan]

Its impossible to trade for Hall. Division rivals rarely trade with each other.

Do we really want a player that has to be treated a certain way or put in a certain situation to play hard? Its like TO. Yeah hes great, but you have to totally make your offense revolve around him or he gets upset. Add to the fact that Hall isn't even a good CB and I see no point in trading for him even if it were possible.

The whole character vs. talent thing is a big cliche this board goes way overboard with. You don't have to sacrifice one or the other, and character has little to do with ethics. Pacman Jones is a decent player, but because of his character he can't stay on the field. A player like Hall was benched this year for racking up like 100 yards in penalties because he can't control himself. He was fined 100,000 dollars for on the field stuff this year. He may have some talent, but it doesn't translate on the field and the dude is immature and can't control his emotions.

exactly... it seems character is the villain. Talent isn't much without the character and discipline to parlay that into an NFL career.

most every player that makes it to the NFL has almost inherent traits in their character that places them above most of the general population. Traits like: discipline, selflessnes, workaholic, respect, dignity, honor.

A few amongst them become stars in spite of the fact that they might not possess those traits. They stick out though. The key is to tap the inner strength in all players and to build your team for the long run.

At this point we are in year number 2 of probably a 5 to 7 year building plan.

To think that we 'could' have more talented players but don't simply because we have been not considering talent as the supreme criteria is, to me, flawed logic.

 

[Pure Energy]

The Bengals are nowhere near the most physically talented team in the NFL.

Really.....A top 5 QB--Carson Palmer...the #1 WR Trio in the NFL with Chad Johnson, TJ Whosyourmama, and Chris Henry** ...a top 10 RB in Rudi Johnson*. A Superbowl safety MVP in Dexter Jackson....One of the best OT in the NFL in Levi Jones.....Pro Bowl CB in Deltha O'Neal.....Probowl T in Willie Anderson.....Probowl kicker Shayne Graham....LB with more than 100 tackles back to back years Landon Johnson....

The talent is there...if the Bengals had more cohesiveness they'd be in the Playoffs and very likely win their Division.


* Injured in 2007;
** Suspended in 2007 for 8 games...Exhibit A of what a Cancer can do to bring down a team.

 

[brianw37]

Thats the problem. I don't want a player whos character issues show up on the field like Hall. Thats when it becomes a real problem. He hasn't shown any ability to control his emotions since the day he was drafted. This leads to penalties, blown plays, etc. and he is a big gambler who rarely has the common sense to do whats best for the team. One of the reasons he gets burned so much is because he is always trying to go after an INT to pad his personal stats.

its a business if he dosent make plays or "pad his personal stats" how will he stick out on a team thats going to crap. the same thing was said about moss when he was in oakland. its funny how much more talanted players look, and how much harder they play when on a winning team.

 

[brianw37]

Really this thread is my argument to go after a Hall or Haynesworth or even Chad Johnson. I am against players like Adam Jones and Chris Henry. Hall and Haynesworths problems happened on the field, and did not break any laws. Jones and Henry's problems happened outsided of football and broke the law. If you go back to guys like Randy Moss or even a TO (whom I cant stand), their problems either occur on the field or in the media--again, neither of which are illegal.

What I am getting at is some guys are branded selfish, cancers, or bad characters. Most are deserving of some form of negative attention or respite, some are not. I am not trying to argue any of that. Simply, some of these guys, like Randy Moss, could be the perfect teammate, hardest worker, and best contributer on a team like us where we have a Drew Brees and other guys who have set a standard on how to work and prepare. Chad Johnson for example, works harder than any WR on that team, studies diligently and does everything he can, yet he gets a bad rap becuase the Bengals tanked this year. I would welcome ocho cinco with open arms.

I suppose my real issue is a lack of patience. I have been patient for quite a while, but when it comes to getting a LB corp to replace the Dome Patrol or CB who can play at a probowl level, I have lost my patience. I understand the ideal of going after guys that play a certain role well-- smart high character overacheivers and such, and I am all for that. In the end though, especially in skill positions such as CB, you absolutely need a few STUDS on defense-- guys in their prime playing at a franchise tag level or a probowl level at least. We don't have that at any positon on defense. Will Smith is the closest thing we have to a probowler, and would be if our defensive lines pressure was consistant. I digress though. We have no LB or CB or S or DL that commands special attention on every play. We have no gamebreaker or playmaker who cuase serious problems for the oppositions offense. We have not had someone like that on defense since I was a kid, so I have lost my patience.

i feel you man, a common mistake most people make is thinking a killer defensive line will make average guys look great, but the reality is u have to have talent all over the field. our line is the strength of our defense but if you take them away our other average guys on the d- start ot show their true form. and its not pretty

 

[DavidM]

i feel you man, a common mistake most people make is thinking a killer defensive line will make average guys look great...

I don't believe that's quite what many people are getting at -- that it would make average guys "great." Better? Yes, and maybe good enough.

But I do agree that a team needs a level of talent across the board. I don't think the Saints secondary is talented enough. But, typically, if a defense can get enough pressure on a QB, his game will suffer. The Saints didn't do nearly enough of that in '07.

 

[SaintsJunkie]

I like what the Pat Gm said on Sirius, the Pats look for Football character, and that is not a angel off the field, but someone with a good work ethic that works hard , smart and won't let the team down. we should find the model they use and choose Patriot type players we need, Haynesworth would be a good player for us