clinton will be unleashing her claws (1 Viewer)

>>North Korean nukes, Iranian nukes, a boiling Islamist cauldron, Oil for Food payola, increasing Russian nationalism, tinpot dictators in South America, a green light on the southern border with Mexico, unresolved Kosovo conflict, a growing Social Security deficit, etc. Then, eight months after taking office, 9/11. That's plenty of mess in my book.

North Korea had a program but not nukes. Iran still doens't have nukes. Islam has been boiling for centuries. Oil for food wasn't necessarily that big of a deal. Increasing Russian nationalism was the direct result of their own cronyistic evolution from communism to market and the US's willing democratic parters in new Europe (not something you can blame on Washington per se'). Tinpot dictators in South America? Eh, the tilt back left down there had barely started. Chavez was first elected (democratically) in 1998 before a brief but mostly unsuccessful coup by the nation's middle and upper classes against his policies. He wasn't as anti-US back then. You may recall one of this administration's first blunders was to encourage dissent down there (ended up on the losing side). The Kosovo conflict doesn't really factor in that much because the US and KFOR (sp?) stepped in to partition. President Bush reaffirmed our country's policy on this just this weekend (ahead of an official announcement btw). Growing social security deficit has been a long term problem. I actually agree with partial privatization and thought Bush's plan for a 1/6th investment by workers under 29(?) was a pretty conservative but sound approach to begin to deal with it. 9/11 is another story.

But let's look at what he inherited that was good - a pretty decent economy; a balanced federal budget (expense ledgers anyway); a simmering but mostly peaceful world - it was as good of a handoff as anything's been in my 30+ years of following this stuff. :shrug: I'm not even a Clinton voter (then or now), but the mess Bush is leaving is far worse than what he inherited IMHO.

TPS
 
>>Steve, I think the Bush administration would be happy if people "pinned" the economy on them. Other than the brief recession immediately following 9/11, the country has been on an amazingly good economic run, which as we all know, will eventually go south for awhile before beginning its climb again. I am not sure at this point how much fault for the subprime mess can be put on the administration, but it's a problem that is going to haunt the next president.

There are certain sectors that have done very well - exports in particular (which make up a larger portion of the economy than housing). But the problems are that people actually feel the impacts on them. $3.00 gas (and off the chart utility bills); ridiculous insurance costs; lending crunch; inflation which is masked by statisitics (think of that half filled basket you get at the grocery for $100 these days - annecdotal, but real); college tuition is through the roof; health care isn't rising as fast as it was a few years ago per annum, but it's a fortune to have an insurance plan and then you pay deductables and ridiculous prescription costs on top of that (says he who just paid $182 for some poison ivy cream last week). I mean people feel it out here in the real world. I'm make a good salary and have a good job and am not behind on anything. I have almost no debt, but my standard of living continues to plunge. It's not like I pay that much attention to the media (as what Limbaugh always says when he's touting how great the economy actually is) telling me things are bad. I can see it. Hell, milk alone (Borden's 2%) is like $5.69 at Wal Mart. Was $1.29 a gallon milk really that long ago? :covri:

TPS
 
but the mess Bush is leaving is far worse than what he inherited

Yeah but that's not in question. Just because Bush sucked doesn't mean he inherited rose petals and candy canes.
 
There isn't much there yet in the way of substance(change- well, change to what?).

How would you compare the level of substance to other candidates?
 
He pretty much stepped into the circumstances leading to and creating 9/11. That was a big o pile of doo-doo to just dismiss off-hand.

He stepped into the beginnings of radical Islamic jihad? You give Bill Clinton too much credit.

Dittos to TPS. The country is always in a mess according to someone's personal politics, but ask yourself: would you rather be president in 2000 or 2009?
 
>>Yeah but that's not in question. Just because Bush sucked doesn't mean he inherited rose petals and candy canes.

Comparatively, he kind of did. He didn't get the gleaming cities of Alabaster that Ross Perot always railed about, and yeah, much of the infrastructure was aging anyway. Yet we were actually in surplus and paying down the national debt. That one issue alone is enough to shake your head over. Realizing that it's okay to charge a little to get out of recession, Bush and Congress went nuts (drunken sailors with charge cards). Economically, the country was in far better shape circa 2000.

TPS
 
>>Dittos to TPS. The country is always in a mess according to someone's personal politics, but ask yourself: would you rather be president in 2000 or 2009?

It's not even close. Give me January 2001 please. :17:

TPS
 
Yet we were actually in surplus and paying down the national debt. That one issue alone is enough to shake your head over. Realizing that it's okay to charge a little to get out of recession, Bush and Congress went nuts (drunken sailors with charge cards). Economically, the country was in far better shape circa 2000.

TPS

You're still talking about what he did, which is not in debate here, as opposed to what he inherited.

Clinton got a way better hand delt to him in 1992 then Bush got in 2000.

DMaestro said:
He stepped into the beginnings of radical Islamic jihad? You give Bill Clinton too much credit.

Whether it's Clinton's fault is irrelevant. It was coming to a head in 2000-2001 and there wasn't much by then that could have been done to head it off.

DMaestro said:
Dittos to TPS. The country is always in a mess according to someone's personal politics, but ask yourself: would you rather be president in 2000 or 2009?

What the hell? Do you people not read?

Bush sucks
Bush sucks
Bush sucks
Bush sucks
Bush sucks
Bush sucks

Ok? We get it. He did a terrible job.
Bush sucks
Bush sucks
Bush sucks

We're talking about 2000. Not 2008.
 
How would you compare the level of substance to other candidates?

Not much difference, really. But the theme "Change" implies something big, something drastic. The other candidates are likely to fiddle around the edges of present policy. So while the word "change" has sex appeal, I'd like to know just how far, how fast, and in what direction that change will occur.
 
>>Clinton got a way better hand delt to him in 1992 then Bush got in 2000.

In world affairs, possibly. But it wasn't that bad in 2000 either. Fiscally? I'd like to see some proof on that from a federal and personal economic perspectives.

TPS
 
>>Dittos to TPS. The country is always in a mess according to someone's personal politics, but ask yourself: would you rather be president in 2000 or 2009?

It's not even close. Give me January 2001 please. :17:

TPS

Give me January 1993 please, or, better yet, January 1988.
 
>>Clinton got a way better hand delt to him in 1992 then Bush got in 2000.

In world affairs, possibly. But it wasn't that bad in 2000 either. Fiscally? I'd like to see some proof on that from a federal and personal economic perspectives.

TPS

I don't have the numbers off the top of my head, but obviously the first thing that comes to mind is the internet/computer bloom, which didn't fall off until 1997-1999 (and prompted the 2000 "mini-recession")

Clinton did a really good job capitalizing on the good fortune, he deserves a lot of credit, the 90's rocked, but I think any President would much, much rather be stepping into 1992 rather then 2000.
 
Clinton got a way better hand delt to him in 1992 then Bush got in 2000.

Fine. This only reinforces my point. I'm not interested in parceling off blame on Republicans, I'm saying that in 2009, the next president of the United States will step into a consensus "mess," or the closest we've come to one in a long time.
 
As SaintsFan11 pointed out--and I hadn't thought of it this way--she still stands to come out of this an even more powerful figure than when she went in. Taking the long view would be a wise move. If she plays her cards right, she might still be very well positioned for a run in 4 years.

If she doubts that, all she has to do is look at John McCain (albeit he had to wait 8 years).

If she doesn't adopt the nuclear option and destroy her standing among her supporters, she'll always have another opportunity.
 

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