Derek Carr - Why People Dislike Him (IMO)

[jahsoul357]

My point is he already displayed that he could play at an elite level in this league before Caldwell got there. I’m not saying coaching is completely irrelevant, but I would say Caldwell with Stafford is a lot different than, say, Waldron getting the best football out of Geno.

Thing is, we never knew Geno's actual potential because, you know, the Jets...lol.

But something you mentioned has me thinking. We have 2 QBs in our QB room that at one time were voted as one of the top 100 players in the league by their peers. They have performed at a high level even though they weren't placed in the best situations. You have to think; if they were in a place that maximized their potential, the sky is the limit.

I would say this is another good example of coaching making a difference, imagine if the Falcons hired Shanahan instead of Quinn as HC in 2015. That would be a significant rewrite of recent football history. The Falcons failed Ryan long term by bringing in a defensive HC, even though they got close to winning it all in 2016.

I know many on this board agree you want an offensive HC, because if your offense is good under a defensive HC you won’t be able to keep your OC for long. Compared to an ideal HC-QB pairing, there is no equivalent pairing on defense. Assuming the offensive HC is competent, the HC and QB grow together, continuing to build on the foundation installed back in their first training camp together. Having some stability at the skill positions also plays a role, QB’s and receivers continue to develop a chemistry that can transcend the playbook at times.

Agree 100%!!!

To me the great QB's like above have something that works in almost any NFL offensive system.....elite field vision, more valuable than anything else.....

I would say that it took experience though. Crap, Manning had elite field vision but he had a problem with a term that people love using around here; "decision making."

 

[Dastheat_9]

Yet, you named 3 QBs that has only played in 1 system their entire career, 1 who excelled in his 2nd system that was built just for him, and 1 who was in the same system for 20 years, tried something new, and went back to what he knew before the season ended.

You telling me Mahomes can play in an offense where he has to take 5 or 7 step drops from under center while reading the entire field and throwing a pass on schedule? Probably not because that is not a part of his skill set and never was. And becausewe are in a time where skill players matter more than "QB skill," he probably never will. If he ever goes to another team, they will not be putting that in the playbook. Honestly, if he goes to a different team, if will be bringing what he did in Kansas City with him, because that is what they all do..lol. We are arguing about if they will succeed in another system when they themselves (outside of Brady for less than a season) never tested the waters.

The game evolves. There are wrinkles. Verbiage is different, Architecture of an Offense is different. Every team has a wrinkle of West Coast. San Francisco runs some power T concepts. Every team runs RB power. Every team runs mesh concepts, and 4 verts. If you have a QB that can diagnose a Defense. Has the sense to audible into a play. That is not a system QB. His system did not teach him to diagnose cover 1 from a safety blitz from the A Gap. Put a man in motion to recover zone from man. In a 3 rd and short. Then audible to a run play to get the first down. His system will teach him progressions.Verbiage. Very rarely are teams going into a 3-5 step drop on timing. This happens sometimes. This is not the 80’s. There are plays design. The slant is one. Football I.Q. Is amazing. Playing QB is like hitting a baseball. Trust your read, analyze. You are only going to have 3 to 4 seconds to get the ball out. What is the situation. Know where to go with the Ball. If you hold the ball a half a second too long. You better scramble. You are already too late. A system doesn’t make a QB. If it did. The Browns would just run the same Offense Texas A & M did with Johnny football regardless of the Defense, and talent.

 

[sfidc3]

Thing is, we never knew Geno's actual potential because, you know, the Jets...lol.

But something you mentioned has me thinking. We have 2 QBs in our QB room that at one time were voted as one of the top 100 players in the league by their peers. They have performed at a high level even though they weren't placed in the best situations. You have to think; if they were in a place that maximized their potential, the sky is the limit.


Agree 100%!!!


I would say that it took experience though. Crap, Manning had elite field vision but he had a problem with a term that people love using around here; "decision making."

Nope, with field vision, QB's either have it or they don't.....experience is important in other aspects for sure but very few guys have a sense of where players are "going to be"......Captain measurable type QB's like Herbert and Josh Allen could play 10-12 more years and still won't have it.....

 

[jahsoul357]

The game evolves. There are wrinkles. Verbiage is different, Architecture of an Offense is different. Every team has a wrinkle of West Coast. San Francisco runs some power T concepts. Every team runs RB power. Every team runs mesh concepts, and 4 verts. If you have a QB that can diagnose a Defense. Has the sense to audible into a play. That is not a system QB. His system did not teach him to diagnose cover 1 from a safety blitz from the A Gap. Put a man in motion to recover zone from man. In a 3 rd and short. Then audible to a run play to get the first down. His system will teach him progressions.Verbiage. Very rarely are teams going into a 3-5 step drop on timing. This happens sometimes. This is not the 80’s. There are plays design. The slant is one. Football I.Q. Is amazing. Playing QB is like hitting a baseball. Trust your read, analyze. You are only going to have 3 to 4 seconds to get the ball out. What is the situation. Know where to go with the Ball. If you hold the ball a half a second too long. You better scramble. You are already too late. A system doesn’t make a QB. If it did. The Browns would just run the same Offense Texas A & M did with Johnny football regardless of the Defense, and talent.

Timing has always been an element of what we implemented into our system and you would be surprised on some of the offenses that still rely heavily on timing. But that's another discussion that talks about actual QB skill vs reliance on skill players that meant for another day . Diagnosing a defense comes from film study and knowing how to manipulate this comes from understand the playbook. But it seems like a lot of people are mistaking what I'm saying. I'm not saying that the system teaches someone how to play QB nor saying that the system replaces football IQ but I'm saying that the greatest QBs in the league have the vast experience in a single system as a common denominator.

Also, your point about Manziel slightly misses the mark because he just did what he wanted to in college and it just worked but I remember Merrill Hodges said that it was nothing on film that would make him take him as an NFL QB..lol. And if you pay attention to the QB position now, most are pulling elements from college into the league to help the QB. This is part of the development that Tom Brady was talking about.

Nope, with field vision, QB's either have it or they don't.....experience is important in other aspects for sure but very few guys have a sense of where players are "going to be"......Captain measurable type QB's like Herbert and Josh Allen could play 10-12 more years and still won't have it.....

Manning had elite field vision, but he also turned he ball over at a much higher rate than most in the league for a good bit of time.

 

[sfidc3]

Timing has always been an element of what we implemented into our system and you would be surprised on some of the offenses that still rely heavily on timing. But that's another discussion that talks about actual QB skill vs reliance on skill players that meant for another day . Diagnosing a defense comes from film study and knowing how to manipulate this comes from understand the playbook. But it seems like a lot of people are mistaking what I'm saying. I'm not saying that the system teaches someone how to play QB nor saying that the system replaces football IQ but I'm saying that the greatest QBs in the league have the vast experience in a single system as a common denominator.

Also, your point about Manziel slightly misses the mark because he just did what he wanted to in college and it just worked but I remember Merrill Hodges said that it was nothing on film that would make him take him as an NFL QB..lol. And if you pay attention to the QB position now, most are pulling elements from college into the league to help the QB. This is part of the development that Tom Brady was talking about.


Manning had elite field vision, but he also turned he ball over at a much higher rate than most in the league for a good bit of time.

True, Brees had his share of turnovers from time to time as well.....I think with elite field vision they occasionally get overconfident leading to turnovers.....