Derek Carr - Why People Dislike Him (IMO) (1 Viewer)

[woohoosaint]

He was doomed once he went to Chipotle.

 

[woohoosaint]

Should have given the Olinemen lumps of coal

Fair exchange, since they gave him 2 concussions.

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

Why do people hate Derek Carr?

Because he's not sharing his secret to healing from broken ribs in 6 days and bouncing back from 2 concussions in 3 weeks in 3 days.

He has some super secret regen health elixir and he's not sharing the wealth.

Spill the beans and he'll make the entire world a better place...might even cure cancer

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Why do people hate Derek Carr?

Because he's not sharing his secret to healing from broken ribs in 6 days and bouncing back from 2 concussions in 3 weeks in 3 days.

He has some super secret regen health elixir and he's not sharing the wealth.

Spill the beans and he'll make the entire world a better place...might even cure cancer

He and Tom Brady share the same trainer...

 

[jahsoul357]

Stafford already had a 5000 yard season with 41 TD’s under his belt before Caldwell ever showed up. He had more yards and more TD’s in the three years with Scott Linehan (2011-2013) preceding the first three years with Caldwell (2014-2016). His yards per attempt were also identical in those two three year spans (7.2), as was his TD % (4.4%). Whatever QBR measures, Stafford’s second lowest score in his career occurred the year Caldwell took over.

He threw 5k yards in 2011.
The next 2 season, he complete 59.6% of passes, threw 49TDs (3.6TD%) to 36 INTs(2.6%INT), with a 81.9 passer rating. By this board's standards, he had 1 good season and 3 bad seasons before Caldwell got there. He also then has 3 of his best seasons in terms of QBR under Caldwell. Many saw Caldwell being the turnaround in his career.

It can happen, but I think it is very much the exception. One thing I do know, the QB’s that end up in a new system practically every year almost never get better. Carr will be under his 4th play caller in four years if/when we move on from PC. It makes me think of a comment Shanahan made, he said that Matt Ryan had a lot more football in his head compared to Purdy when trying to install his system. Ryan actually got worse his first year under Shanahan, posting his worst QB rating in six years before rebounding as the league MVP. I don’t foresee instant success with any OC we’re able to get in the door, and then you have to decide whether our chances are good enough to keep it going in 2025.

Matt Ryan is a great example to use, as he was one that was also screwed by being in multiple offenses. Instead of mastering the way the offense works, they basically have to dump all of that to learn a new system. When he gets into a system that his perfect for him, Shanny leaves, they bring in Sark and the rest is history..lol.

I was going to say something regarding this....

"Ryan actually got worse his first year under Shanahan, posting his worst QB rating in six years before rebounding as the league MVP. I don’t foresee instant success with any OC we’re able to get in the door, and then you have to decide whether our chances are good enough to keep it going in 2025."

But I chose to leave it alone because that would require a football convo (which we could have offline) but for general consumption, it would be a lot "moving parts."

You are too hung up on systems and schemes, they are not the panacea of everything. Every system and schemes has similarities and differences . And no one takes snaps under center most of the game. A system/scheme can't make a bad QB good and a system/scheme can't make a good QB bad / It's always a marriage.

What similarities did our offense in Brees' prime share with the system in New England or the Packer's system? Not much.
Different offensive philosophies, different ways to go through progressions, different ways to call protections, the WR have different responsibilities, etc, etc.
Also, what determines a good or bad QB? I agree that it is a marriage but scheming and coaching matters, a lot.
Let me ask you; why do you think Trevor Lawrence was the worst starting QB in the league in 2021?

Plus systems change and adapt. You can't say Manning played in 1 system his whole career because that system adapted and changed , not top to bottom but it adapted every yr they all do

Systems adapt but the core philosophy doesn't. Changes were made to our offense to suit what Drew was good at, what he became good at, and then what he stopped becoming good at, with Payton always looking for ways to exploits mismatches.
And Peyton Manning ran the same offense that he ran with the Colts in Denver. They tried earlier in that system to run McCoy's offense and after losing, Manning went full Colts. The only real changes Manning saw was running the Colts offense in different formations.

 

[sfidc3]

SP would not tolerate the undisciplined play of the whole team. He would not have hired Marrone. WR's would not half-arse it Fear would have never left the building , and DC would not feel the need to call people out , SP would have done it long before. I think that SP kinda knew he was almost out. That's why we didn't go after a QB of the future and ran with JW when DB retired. SP knew he was not gonna be around to develop a young QB

I agree with most of this....I'm also beginning to think there was a power struggle between Loomis and CSP and Gayle favored Loomis.....no proof, no evidence, just a hunch.....

Also, I really liked Stafford in Detroit, he was a potentially great QB on a really, really bad team for most of his time there.....hated that he went to the Rams....ugh.....

 

[Rouxble]

He threw 5k yards in 2011.
The next 2 season, he complete 59.6% of passes, threw 49TDs (3.6TD%) to 36 INTs(2.6%INT), with a 81.9 passer rating. By this board's standards, he had 1 good season and 3 bad seasons before Caldwell got there. He also then has 3 of his best seasons in terms of QBR under Caldwell. Many saw Caldwell being the turnaround in his career.

My point is he already displayed that he could play at an elite level in this league before Caldwell got there. I’m not saying coaching is completely irrelevant, but I would say Caldwell with Stafford is a lot different than, say, Waldron getting the best football out of Geno.

Matt Ryan is a great example to use, as he was one that was also screwed by being in multiple offenses. Instead of mastering the way the offense works, they basically have to dump all of that to learn a new system. When he gets into a system that his perfect for him, Shanny leaves, they bring in Sark and the rest is history..lol.

I would say this is another good example of coaching making a difference, imagine if the Falcons hired Shanahan instead of Quinn as HC in 2015. That would be a significant rewrite of recent football history. The Falcons failed Ryan long term by bringing in a defensive HC, even though they got close to winning it all in 2016.

I know many on this board agree you want an offensive HC, because if your offense is good under a defensive HC you won’t be able to keep your OC for long. Compared to an ideal HC-QB pairing, there is no equivalent pairing on defense. Assuming the offensive HC is competent, the HC and QB grow together, continuing to build on the foundation installed back in their first training camp together. Having some stability at the skill positions also plays a role, QB’s and receivers continue to develop a chemistry that can transcend the playbook at times.

 

[BarBar]

And when we faced them in the Super Bowl, Manning was in the same offense with the same OC for 12 years at that point. He became the system.


I thought I read somewhere that Marty wanted to keep Drew and that decision was from above him. And don't know why he would need to scapegoat Drew. Drew play actually got worse from 2004 to 2005. They go 14-2 in 2006 with Rivers but ran into that Patriot's defense..lol

This is an argument in semantics really. I get your point and agree these guys play in a system. And guys like Brady, Brees, and Manning completely mastered their system.

Some people think a system QB or player means they are successful because of the system instead of their ability. I don't think that's what you are saying but your meaning is lost on some folks because of the word "system."

 

[sfidc3]

And guys like Brady, Brees, and Manning completely mastered their system.

To me the great QB's like above have something that works in almost any NFL offensive system.....elite field vision, more valuable than anything else.....

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

The real reason Carr isn't that well liked:

He was brought in by a coach most of us didn't like to save his job and signed to a contract that 2is set to outlive that lame duck coach.

 

[jahsoul357]

My point is he already displayed that he could play at an elite level in this league before Caldwell got there. I’m not saying coaching is completely irrelevant, but I would say Caldwell with Stafford is a lot different than, say, Waldron getting the best football out of Geno.

Thing is, we never knew Geno's actual potential because, you know, the Jets...lol.

But something you mentioned has me thinking. We have 2 QBs in our QB room that at one time were voted as one of the top 100 players in the league by their peers. They have performed at a high level even though they weren't placed in the best situations. You have to think; if they were in a place that maximized their potential, the sky is the limit.

I would say this is another good example of coaching making a difference, imagine if the Falcons hired Shanahan instead of Quinn as HC in 2015. That would be a significant rewrite of recent football history. The Falcons failed Ryan long term by bringing in a defensive HC, even though they got close to winning it all in 2016.

I know many on this board agree you want an offensive HC, because if your offense is good under a defensive HC you won’t be able to keep your OC for long. Compared to an ideal HC-QB pairing, there is no equivalent pairing on defense. Assuming the offensive HC is competent, the HC and QB grow together, continuing to build on the foundation installed back in their first training camp together. Having some stability at the skill positions also plays a role, QB’s and receivers continue to develop a chemistry that can transcend the playbook at times.

Agree 100%!!!

To me the great QB's like above have something that works in almost any NFL offensive system.....elite field vision, more valuable than anything else.....

I would say that it took experience though. Crap, Manning had elite field vision but he had a problem with a term that people love using around here; "decision making."

 

[Dastheat_9]

Yet, you named 3 QBs that has only played in 1 system their entire career, 1 who excelled in his 2nd system that was built just for him, and 1 who was in the same system for 20 years, tried something new, and went back to what he knew before the season ended.

You telling me Mahomes can play in an offense where he has to take 5 or 7 step drops from under center while reading the entire field and throwing a pass on schedule? Probably not because that is not a part of his skill set and never was. And becausewe are in a time where skill players matter more than "QB skill," he probably never will. If he ever goes to another team, they will not be putting that in the playbook. Honestly, if he goes to a different team, if will be bringing what he did in Kansas City with him, because that is what they all do..lol. We are arguing about if they will succeed in another system when they themselves (outside of Brady for less than a season) never tested the waters.

The game evolves. There are wrinkles. Verbiage is different, Architecture of an Offense is different. Every team has a wrinkle of West Coast. San Francisco runs some power T concepts. Every team runs RB power. Every team runs mesh concepts, and 4 verts. If you have a QB that can diagnose a Defense. Has the sense to audible into a play. That is not a system QB. His system did not teach him to diagnose cover 1 from a safety blitz from the A Gap. Put a man in motion to recover zone from man. In a 3 rd and short. Then audible to a run play to get the first down. His system will teach him progressions.Verbiage. Very rarely are teams going into a 3-5 step drop on timing. This happens sometimes. This is not the 80’s. There are plays design. The slant is one. Football I.Q. Is amazing. Playing QB is like hitting a baseball. Trust your read, analyze. You are only going to have 3 to 4 seconds to get the ball out. What is the situation. Know where to go with the Ball. If you hold the ball a half a second too long. You better scramble. You are already too late. A system doesn’t make a QB. If it did. The Browns would just run the same Offense Texas A & M did with Johnny football regardless of the Defense, and talent.

 

[sfidc3]

Thing is, we never knew Geno's actual potential because, you know, the Jets...lol.

But something you mentioned has me thinking. We have 2 QBs in our QB room that at one time were voted as one of the top 100 players in the league by their peers. They have performed at a high level even though they weren't placed in the best situations. You have to think; if they were in a place that maximized their potential, the sky is the limit.


Agree 100%!!!


I would say that it took experience though. Crap, Manning had elite field vision but he had a problem with a term that people love using around here; "decision making."

Nope, with field vision, QB's either have it or they don't.....experience is important in other aspects for sure but very few guys have a sense of where players are "going to be"......Captain measurable type QB's like Herbert and Josh Allen could play 10-12 more years and still won't have it.....

 

[jahsoul357]

The game evolves. There are wrinkles. Verbiage is different, Architecture of an Offense is different. Every team has a wrinkle of West Coast. San Francisco runs some power T concepts. Every team runs RB power. Every team runs mesh concepts, and 4 verts. If you have a QB that can diagnose a Defense. Has the sense to audible into a play. That is not a system QB. His system did not teach him to diagnose cover 1 from a safety blitz from the A Gap. Put a man in motion to recover zone from man. In a 3 rd and short. Then audible to a run play to get the first down. His system will teach him progressions.Verbiage. Very rarely are teams going into a 3-5 step drop on timing. This happens sometimes. This is not the 80’s. There are plays design. The slant is one. Football I.Q. Is amazing. Playing QB is like hitting a baseball. Trust your read, analyze. You are only going to have 3 to 4 seconds to get the ball out. What is the situation. Know where to go with the Ball. If you hold the ball a half a second too long. You better scramble. You are already too late. A system doesn’t make a QB. If it did. The Browns would just run the same Offense Texas A & M did with Johnny football regardless of the Defense, and talent.

Timing has always been an element of what we implemented into our system and you would be surprised on some of the offenses that still rely heavily on timing. But that's another discussion that talks about actual QB skill vs reliance on skill players that meant for another day . Diagnosing a defense comes from film study and knowing how to manipulate this comes from understand the playbook. But it seems like a lot of people are mistaking what I'm saying. I'm not saying that the system teaches someone how to play QB nor saying that the system replaces football IQ but I'm saying that the greatest QBs in the league have the vast experience in a single system as a common denominator.

Also, your point about Manziel slightly misses the mark because he just did what he wanted to in college and it just worked but I remember Merrill Hodges said that it was nothing on film that would make him take him as an NFL QB..lol. And if you pay attention to the QB position now, most are pulling elements from college into the league to help the QB. This is part of the development that Tom Brady was talking about.

Nope, with field vision, QB's either have it or they don't.....experience is important in other aspects for sure but very few guys have a sense of where players are "going to be"......Captain measurable type QB's like Herbert and Josh Allen could play 10-12 more years and still won't have it.....

Manning had elite field vision, but he also turned he ball over at a much higher rate than most in the league for a good bit of time.

 

[sfidc3]

Timing has always been an element of what we implemented into our system and you would be surprised on some of the offenses that still rely heavily on timing. But that's another discussion that talks about actual QB skill vs reliance on skill players that meant for another day . Diagnosing a defense comes from film study and knowing how to manipulate this comes from understand the playbook. But it seems like a lot of people are mistaking what I'm saying. I'm not saying that the system teaches someone how to play QB nor saying that the system replaces football IQ but I'm saying that the greatest QBs in the league have the vast experience in a single system as a common denominator.

Also, your point about Manziel slightly misses the mark because he just did what he wanted to in college and it just worked but I remember Merrill Hodges said that it was nothing on film that would make him take him as an NFL QB..lol. And if you pay attention to the QB position now, most are pulling elements from college into the league to help the QB. This is part of the development that Tom Brady was talking about.


Manning had elite field vision, but he also turned he ball over at a much higher rate than most in the league for a good bit of time.

True, Brees had his share of turnovers from time to time as well.....I think with elite field vision they occasionally get overconfident leading to turnovers.....