Derek Carr - Why People Dislike Him (IMO) (2 Viewers)

[BayouSAINTJoe]

*The System*
-Dribble, Dribble, Dribble, step, step, step, step, 3
-Dribble, Dribble, Dribble, step, step, step, step, Drive
-Dribble, Dribble, Dribble, step, step, step, step, Flop

FIFY

 

[los226]

Seeing LV on primetime tonight makes me wish Carr was still with LV.

 

[jahsoul357]

In short, Manning continued to produce without Caldwell, but Caldwell couldn't continue to produce without Manning.

The short comings of his head coaching gig in Detroit always seem to overshadow the development of Matt Stafford at that same time.
Unless we ignore him going from this:


to this:


Him not being the best head coach doesn't negate what he is good at.
This also shows how standards are set differently for "reasons," but that's another topic for another day.

I think it's more about the narrative that these coaches can just take anybody at any time and put up the same numbers--the QB matters. Purdy has made a lot of people forget how Shanahan did with Hoyer, Beathard, and Mullens (and I suppose Lance). Shanahan is 62-49 overall in the regular season, but it you break it out by QB, he is 9-29 without Purdy/Jimmy G and 53-20 with those QB's. It's a huge difference in performance based on who is taking snaps.

I wouldn't say that coaching is irrelevant, but I still stick to my idea that OL > QB > OC. Bad OL? QB will be severely limited. Bad QB? Coaching can only do so much, but the great QB's will be able to function in just about any system unless we're talking about having Peyton Manning run the read option.

I didn't say the QB didn't matter. My argument has been building the scheme around the QB. Crap, everyone talks about Purdy ignoring that he is basically Jimmy G with a "stronger" arm. Look at both of them operating Shanny's system and the only difference that really sticks out is Purdy is actually willing the throw the ball further downfield (Jimmy G wasn't about that life..lol).

I agree with you to a point but we've seen too many QBs leave bad coaching/scheming/team/bad fit and become more successful. All of the things you listed are needed for success. But this goes back to the point I've always said. A great coach can make an "average" QB great. A bad coach can make a "great" QB bad.

 

[Jesse Custer]

Thanks to Barry, I can't read his name as anything other than Stat Padford.

 

[DSnfla]

Don't take me wrong. I know good coaching makes a difference. The lack of good coaching is why Carr is bad and not mediocre on the Saints. But we shouldn't be striving for mediocre. Carr has a long history in the NFL and I understand he had a good year statistically in 2019, ranking 8th among QBs. But that doesn't make him a top 10 QB with good coaching in 2023. Do you know who the top QB statistically was in 2019? Jameis Winston. He threw the most yards and the 2nd most TDs. And the most INTs by a mile. Neither of these guys are taking you where you want to go, even with better coaching. They will always be flawed QBs that you have to work around.

You can defend Carr as not the problem with this team and be completely correct because it cleary IS coaching. That does not mean that Carr is ever going to be the Saints solution at QB because he simply isn't a guy that will elevate the guys around him. He doesn't have the passing skills, the leadership skills and honestly the smarts that it takes to be a great NFL starter. And that isn't a knock on him. Every year 1/4 of the league actively try to replace their QB and even more would if there was a guaranteed upgrade available.

LOL why am I not surprised that the next post after yours is Jahsoul LOL . While DC had a couple mediocre yrs he also had some pretty damn good yrs , 1 enough to be in the MVP conversation ( something you love to ignore) . In those pretty damn good yrs he was good enough to at least make it to the SB IF he had a defense . Your argument is he will never be any better than he has been. 1st I don't really agree with a very good offensive minded coach I think he can me better, AND if he's as good a some of his best yrs THAT along with good coaching and a good defense is enough to at least get us to the big dance . QB's that are a lot worse and I mean A LOT worse than DC have WON SB's
Anyway, those stats are just for yrds . Look at the QBR JW's was not good while DC's was top like 6-7

 

[DSnfla]

The short comings of his head coaching gig in Detroit always seem to overshadow the development of Matt Stafford at that same time.
Unless we ignore him going from this:


to this:


Him not being the best head coach doesn't negate what he is good at.
This also shows how standards are set differently for "reasons," but that's another topic for another day.


I didn't say the QB didn't matter. My argument has been building the scheme around the QB. Crap, everyone talks about Purdy ignoring that he is basically Jimmy G with a "stronger" arm. Look at both of them operating Shanny's system and the only difference that really sticks out is Purdy is actually willing the throw the ball further downfield (Jimmy G wasn't about that life..lol).

I agree with you to a point but we've seen too many QBs leave bad coaching/scheming/team/bad fit and become more successful. All of the things you listed are needed for success. But this goes back to the point I've always said. A great coach can make an "average" QB great. A bad coach can make a "great" QB bad.

Sorry my friend , your contention has always been that there are no busts at QB only QB's that did not get coaching or in bad schemes. I disagree . While coaching matters very much there are QB's that just don't get it. Or don't perform under pressure or don't see the field. A scheme is just that a scheme. A great QB can be great in almost any scheme, sure some fit them better but they will perform in almost any situation. Brady, Brees , Manning , Rodgers , Mahomes would be great in almost any scheme, except maybe the wing T. Bud , you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear even if you are Gucci

 

[DSnfla]

Carr has been jittery even in our horizontal stretch concepts, rushing the hank concept for instance when it isn’t warranted. Watch Trevor Lawrence run the same concept and they chop up defenses, while several times I’ve seen Carr throw the flat route early and/or read the coverage in the wrong direction. His best West Coast game was probably week two, and that seems like it was 100 years ago.

I wonder if McDaniels followed by several weeks of Trevor Penning have broken Carr beyond repair, we should be able to get at least Dalton level production from this guy.

I think one of DC's biggest issues is he has NO faith in his Oline and to tell you the truth I can't blame him. They have been the model of inconsistency , from bad to mediocre

 

[DSnfla]

Maybe, but I guarantee you that SP wouldn't tolerate Carr if he acted like he has under DA (which he probably wouldn't).....SP would roll with Jameis....no problem.....

I doubt SP would go after Carr in FA anyways....my point remains, Carr has not helped this team get better with his play, there is no denying that......

SP would not tolerate the undisciplined play of the whole team. He would not have hired Marrone. WR's would not half-arse it Fear would have never left the building , and DC would not feel the need to call people out , SP would have done it long before. I think that SP kinda knew he was almost out. That's why we didn't go after a QB of the future and ran with JW when DB retired. SP knew he was not gonna be around to develop a young QB

 

[DSnfla]

Perhaps, but I refuse to celebrate or throw credit to anybody for being mid. They'll get the "serviceable under perfect circumstances" label from me. That goes for Carr and Jameis, but also for Pete and DA. Where we are sitting is that none of them are serviceable together on this team and there is no replacing one person to fix the rest of them. It's just not reality to think that we are one person away from being competitive against the good teams in the league. A great coach might cover for one of the mid QBs. A great QB might cover some for poor coaching. That would only put us on top of this awful division, not make us Super Bowl contenders.

DA and PC along with the rest of the coaching staff are NOT serviceable under the BEST circumstances. And I can name 20 QB's that won SB's that were considered not great or even not that good . And they were not in perfect circumstances. You can't say that we could not win a SB with a 7-12 QB with good coaching because it's been done MANY MANY times. Now it helps to have an elite QB but it's better to have elite coaching. I say that and I'm NOT saying DC is our even mid term answer @ QB. I say that because he's here now for at least a yr or 2. The perfect time to get a up and coming offensive minded HC like a Johnson or maybe even Waldron to get the most out of DC with an eye on the future to draft and develop a young QB if we can't get there with DC

 

[DSnfla]

Yeah, let's bury our heads in the sand and pull for that first round exit playoff that guarantees we keep that energy vampire Dennis Allen in place.

Elvis, it's a weird thing that calling someone a system QB is seen as a negative. In this case, it's not. A smart OC or head coach saw their strengths and weaknesses and built a system for them to succeed.

By definition, a system QB is a QB that can ONLY be successful in a certain system and that's just not true of Brady, Manning , Brees. While certain systems favor certain QB's because it's tailored to their strengths. Calling those QB's system QB's is ridiculous

 

[jahsoul357]

Brady, Brees , Manning , Rodgers , Mahomes would be great in almost any scheme, except maybe the wing T. Bud , you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear even if you are Gucci

Yet, you named 3 QBs that has only played in 1 system their entire career, 1 who excelled in his 2nd system that was built just for him, and 1 who was in the same system for 20 years, tried something new, and went back to what he knew before the season ended.

You telling me Mahomes can play in an offense where he has to take 5 or 7 step drops from under center while reading the entire field and throwing a pass on schedule? Probably not because that is not a part of his skill set and never was. And becausewe are in a time where skill players matter more than "QB skill," he probably never will. If he ever goes to another team, they will not be putting that in the playbook. Honestly, if he goes to a different team, if will be bringing what he did in Kansas City with him, because that is what they all do..lol. We are arguing about if they will succeed in another system when they themselves (outside of Brady for less than a season) never tested the waters.

 

[Rouxble]

The short comings of his head coaching gig in Detroit always seem to overshadow the development of Matt Stafford at that same time.

Stafford already had a 5000 yard season with 41 TD’s under his belt before Caldwell ever showed up. He had more yards and more TD’s in the three years with Scott Linehan (2011-2013) preceding the first three years with Caldwell (2014-2016). His yards per attempt were also identical in those two three year spans (7.2), as was his TD % (4.4%). Whatever QBR measures, Stafford’s second lowest score in his career occurred the year Caldwell took over.

I agree with you to a point but we've seen too many QBs leave bad coaching/scheming/team/bad fit and become more successful. All of the things you listed are needed for success. But this goes back to the point I've always said. A great coach can make an "average" QB great. A bad coach can make a "great" QB bad.

It can happen, but I think it is very much the exception. One thing I do know, the QB’s that end up in a new system practically every year almost never get better. Carr will be under his 4th play caller in four years if/when we move on from PC. It makes me think of a comment Shanahan made, he said that Matt Ryan had a lot more football in his head compared to Purdy when trying to install his system. Ryan actually got worse his first year under Shanahan, posting his worst QB rating in six years before rebounding as the league MVP. I don’t foresee instant success with any OC we’re able to get in the door, and then you have to decide whether our chances are good enough to keep it going in 2025.

 

[jahsoul357]

By definition, a system QB is a QB that can ONLY be successful in a certain system and that's just not true of Brady, Manning , Brees. While certain systems favor certain QB's because it's tailored to their strengths. Calling those QB's system QB's is ridiculous

-Brady tried a new system in Tampa and before the season ended, he went back to what he was doing for 20 years
-Peyton Manning has only played in 1 system his entire career. The Colts went as far as keeping the same OC with a new coach.
-Brees was borderline OK in San Diego. He became a hall of famer playing in a system built totally for and around him.

Feel how you feel but what worked for them worked for them and they didn't deviate from it.

 

[DSnfla]

Should have given the Olinemen lumps of coal

Yet, you named 3 QBs that has only played in 1 system their entire career, 1 who excelled in his 2nd system that was built just for him, and 1 who was in the same system for 20 years, tried something new, and went back to what he knew before the season ended.

You telling me Mahomes can play in an offense where he has to take 5 or 7 step drops from under center while reading the entire field and throwing a pass on schedule? Probably not because that is not a part of his skill set and never was. And becausewe are in a time where skill players matter more than "QB skill," he probably never will. If he ever goes to another team, they will not be putting that in the playbook. Honestly, if he goes to a different team, if will be bringing what he did in Kansas City with him, because that is what they all do..lol. We are arguing about if they will succeed in another system when they themselves (outside of Brady for less than a season) never tested the waters.

You are too hung up on systems and schemes, they are not the panacea
of everything. Every system and schemes has similarities and differences . And no one takes snaps under center most of the game. A system/scheme can't make a bad QB good and a system/scheme can't make a good QB bad / It's always a marriage. Plus systems change and adapt. You can't say Manning played in 1 system his whole career because that system adapted and changed , not top to bottom but it adapted every yr they all do

 

[DSnfla]

Stafford already had a 5000 yard season with 41 TD’s under his belt before Caldwell ever showed up. He had more yards and more TD’s in the three years with Scott Linehan (2011-2013) preceding the first three years with Caldwell (2014-2016). His yards per attempt were also identical in those two three year spans (7.2), as was his TD % (4.4%). Whatever QBR measures, Stafford’s second lowest score in his career occurred the year Caldwell took over.

It can happen, but I think it is very much the exception. One thing I do know, the QB’s that end up in a new system practically every year almost never get better. Carr will be under his 4th play caller in four years if/when we move on from PC. It makes me think of a comment Shanahan made, he said that Matt Ryan had a lot more football in his head compared to Purdy when trying to install his system. Ryan actually got worse his first year under Shanahan, posting his worst QB rating in six years before rebounding as the league MVP. I don’t foresee instant success with any OC we’re able to get in the door, and then you have to decide whether our chances are good enough to keep it going in 2025.

That's why if we are unfortunate to keep DA next yr Musgrave may be a good idea , They worked together before and had success