Derek Carr - Why People Dislike Him (IMO) (4 Viewers)

[BayouSAINTJoe]

Nope. Could be one of the issues as well. Not that he’s obligated, but if I’m new in a city as a QB I’ll try to get hip to how the people operate and function so I can better serve. Leadership 101. He could have and I could be wrong but I haven’t seen it. I don’t think now is a good time either lol

Right...that time has come and gone...he better stay on that side of the lake

 

[Deuuuuce]

Not going to lie, im ebarassed to be a Saints fan seeing this thread at the top of the forum when the team still has a lot to play for. Weird.

 

[jahsoul357]

Without even digging deep at all. Brady has been good everywhere and with anyone. Everyone who has had to perform without him has been awful.

Peyton Manning is another QB who was good everywhere and with anyone, and his coaches didn't find nearly the success without him as they did with him.

There are a lot of things that are missed with these 2 examples. Both Brady and Manning only ran 1 offense their entire career and by definition, both were "system QBs." When Manning went to Denver, the Broncos ran the same offense that he ran in Indy. When Tom Brady went to Tampa, he could not effectively run Bruce Arians offense, during the bye, elements of the NE system was implemented and by the next season, the offense looked nothing like a Bruce Arians offense.

Tom Brady 12 games before bye: 275ypg on 64% completion. 28TDs/11 INTs 95.1 passer rating
Tom Brady 4 games after bye: 333ypg on 69% completion, 12TDs/1 INT, 126.9 passer rating (having AB, who was familiar with NE's system didn't hurt)


Tom Brady:
Under Bill Belichick, New England has always ran a variant of the E-P system that Charlie Weis implemented. When Charlie Weis left to coach Notre Dame, Josh McDaniel's kept the same offense in place, as that was the only system that Tom Brady knew. By time McDaniels left, Brady was in that system 9 seasons and he mastered it. Fun fact, Mac Jones ran that offense and they made the playoffs. Too bad the league cracked down on bringing in cameras to practice.






Peyton Manning:
Jim Mora brought in Tom Moore as the Colts OC. When Tony Dungy became coach, he retained Tom Moore and Manning continued to run the same offense. The difference maker that is ignored is Jim Caldwell being his QB coach. One season with Jim Caldwell and he got his first MVP but the system never changed.

You can take any good offensive coach and look at the QB's they've coached, and you'll find that they have tremendously different performances depending on who is under center. They are masters of tailoring the offense to their QB, but can't seem to figure it out when they don't have their guy. Here are some QB ratings of note, only going with QB's that have started at least one game under these coaches:

Reid with Mahomes, Smith, Vick, and McNabb - 93.5
Reid with anyone else - 74.6

Shanahan with Purdy or Garoppolo - 102.8
Shanahan with anyone else - 82.9

McDaniel with Tua - 105.1
McDaniel with anyone else - 72.2

Payton with Brees - 101.5
Payton with any other Saint - 89.3 (worth noting he had Winston at a 101.5)

When you take this at face value, this is telling me that all of these coaches were/are able to produce with the QB that they named the starter. We could technically add another line for Lance since Shanny named his a starter at the beginning of the season and we can also do the same for Winston, since he was named starter.

 

[Elvis]

Both Brady and Manning only ran 1 offense their entire career and by definition, both were "system QBs."

I'm going to stop you right there and end my participation in this conversation with you. Because you literally just called two of the best to ever play the game system QBs. I supposed Drew was also a system QB.? It's just ridiculous nonsense. I'm out on this.

 

[Jesse Custer]

Not going to lie, im ebarassed to be a Saints fan seeing this thread at the top of the forum when the team still has a lot to play for. Weird.

Yeah, let's bury our heads in the sand and pull for that first round exit playoff that guarantees we keep that energy vampire Dennis Allen in place.

Elvis, it's a weird thing that calling someone a system QB is seen as a negative. In this case, it's not. A smart OC or head coach saw their strengths and weaknesses and built a system for them to succeed.

 

[Deuuuuce]

Yeah, let's bury our heads in the sand and pull for that first round exit playoff that guarantees we keep that energy vampire Dennis Allen in place.

I’m just going to enjoy the games. no point of watching if winning is going to make you miserable

 

[jahsoul357]

I'm going to stop you right there and end my participation in this conversation with you. Because you literally just called two of the best to ever play the game system QBs. I supposed Drew was also a system QB.? It's just ridiculous nonsense. I'm out on this.

I will answer you but I need to know this first, as you seem offended by the notion of me saying that. What do you believe a system QB to be and why do you believe they aren't?

 

[seguinfan]

They dont like him because he is a prick and needs to be gone.

 

[Deuuuuce]

I will answer you but I need to know this first, as you seem offended by the notion of me saying that. What do you believe a system QB to be?

Dude payton manning is not a system QB . Thats ridiculous. They just ran basic stuff but he was lethal changing plays at the line and had a ridiculous arm. Brady also ran basic stuff but just had uncanny pocket presence, work ethic, and accuracy.. They were not at all system QBs. Coaches don’t make players. Players make coaches with very few exceptions

 

[Deuuuuce]

I'm going to stop you right there and end my participation in this conversation with you. Because you literally just called two of the best to ever play the game system QBs. I supposed Drew was also a system QB.? It's just ridiculous nonsense. I'm out on this.

I was watching some highlights the other day of Brees and he was on the sideline telling robert meachem exactly how the coverage was trying to play him and how he was going to throw him open. That has nothing to do with coaching. That’s just a player that has seen everything and can execute no matter what the coaches on either side do. It’s just football. It’s not as complicated as some people make it.

 

[jahsoul357]

Dude payton manning is not a system QB . Thats ridiculous. They just ran basic stuff but he was lethal changing plays at the line and had a ridiculous arm. Brady also ran basic stuff but just had uncanny pocket presence, work ethic, and accuracy.. They were not at all system QBs. Coaches don’t make players. Players make coaches with very few exceptions

That doesn't negate anyone from being a "system QB." And neither one of them ran basic stuff. They both learned a system, were allowed to grow in that system, and eventually mastered that system and ran that 1 systems the entirety of their career. (Brady tried Arians system before realizing it wasn't for him and going back to what he knew). Every successful QB in the league can be deemed a system QB. QBs aren't going around learning new systems every 2 to 3 years, at least not the successful ones.

I was watching some highlights the other day of Brees and he was on the sideline telling robert meachem exactly how the coverage was trying to play him and how he was going to throw him open. That has nothing to do with coaching. That’s just a player that has seen everything and can execute no matter what the coaches on either side do. It’s just football. It’s not as complicated as some people make it.

Being a "system QB" doesn't mean you don't learn the elements of being a QB and that you don't know and can't master the element of the game. There are some things that comes with experience and that's what you are speaking to but if he didn't master the system/playbook, do you believe that Drew could tell Meachem how to exploit that coverage? Let's get more specific; in the system that Sean Payton built around and for Drew, he exceeded everything that he did in San Diego. Is this saying that Drew didn't put in the work? Nope. Is this saying that Drew didn't eventually master the art of being a QB? He did (we had some rough patches though). Drew was allowed to fail and succeed in the system and in turned mastered it and knew every element and detail of it. The same goes for Brady and Manning and countless others. They master the system that they are in and that is something that all top tier and HOF quarterbacks have done.

 

[Deuuuuce]

That doesn't negate anyone from being a "system QB." And neither one of them ran basic stuff. They both learned a system, were allowed to grow in that system, and eventually mastered that system and ran that 1 systems the entirety of their career. (Brady tried Arians system before realizing it wasn't for him and going back to what he knew). Every successful QB in the league can be deemed a system QB. QBs aren't going around learning new systems every 2 to 3 years, at least not the successful ones.


Being a "system QB" doesn't mean you don't learn the elements of being a QB and that you don't know and can't master the element of the game. There are some things that comes with experience and that's what you are speaking to but if he didn't master the system/playbook,; do you believe that Drew could tell Meachem how to exploit that coverage? Let's get more specific; in the system that Sean Payton built around and for Drew, he exceeded everything that he did in San Diego. Is this saying that Drew didn't put in the work? Nope. Is this saying that Drew didn't eventually master the art of being a QB? He did (we had some rough patches though). Drew was allowed to fail and succeed in the system and in turned mastered it and knew every element and detail of it. The same goes for Brady and Manning and countless others. They master the system that they are in and that is something that all top tier and HOF quarterbacks have done.

If brady and manning are system qbs how did they manage to win super bowls with two different teams? Coaching plays a role obviously, but it doesnt matter what play you call if the person running the show doesn’t have the ability to execute it consistently. That has little to do with coaching. A lot of it is staying in shape, mechanics, and footwork. It’s like a good pitcher in baseball. There’s no manager in the world that could stop a good pitcher from dominating them. Or a good point guard in basketball. If coaching mattered the same as being a phenomenal athlete the coaches would get paid at least the same or more.

 

[jahsoul357]

If brady and manning are system qbs how did they manage to win super bowls with two different teams? Coaching plays a role obviously, but it doesnt matter what play you call if the person running the show doesn’t have the ability to execute it consistently. That has little to do with coaching. A lot of it is staying in shape, mechanics, and footwork. It’s like a good pitcher in baseball. There’s no manager in the world that could stop a good pitcher from dominating them. Or a good point guard in basketball. If coaching mattered the same as being a phenomenal athlete the coaches would get paid at least the same or more.

I talked about that actually.

There are a lot of things that are missed with these 2 examples. Both Brady and Manning only ran 1 offense their entire career and by definition, both were "system QBs." When Manning went to Denver, the Broncos ran the same offense that he ran in Indy. When Tom Brady went to Tampa, he could not effectively run Bruce Arians offense, during the bye, elements of the NE system was implemented and by the next season, the offense looked nothing like a Bruce Arians offense.

Tom Brady 12 games before bye: 275ypg on 64% completion. 28TDs/11 INTs 95.1 passer rating
Tom Brady 4 games after bye: 333ypg on 69% completion, 12TDs/1 INT, 126.9 passer rating (having AB, who was familiar with NE's system didn't hurt)

Manning brought his offense to Denver and Tom Brady began bringing in elements of NE's offense during the bye week in 2020. He went from running a scaled down version of Arians' offense to simplifying it and adding Patriots elements..lol. The next season, the Bucs offense looked closer to the Patriots than anything that Arians has ever drawn up.

Again, being a system QB doesn't mean that you can't QB. Mastering a system for all those years is why they were elite. They know everything about it and while in that offense, has seen everything that can counteract, which allows a certain way that they can attack the defense, which goes back to the example you gave about Drew. Experience in the system allowed for that type of communication. And this was when skill mattered.

 

[perret318]

Not going to lie, im ebarassed to be a Saints fan seeing this thread at the top of the forum when the team still has a lot to play for. Weird.

Ugh, here we go with the "true fan" nonsense again. Being a fan does not mean blind optimism in the face of overwhelming evidence.

I'm a Saints fan.
I also think Derek Carr was a huge mistake based on what I've seen so far.

Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Deuuuuce]

I talked about that actually.


Manning brought his offense to Denver and Tom Brady began bring in elements of NE's offense during the bye week in 2020. He went from running a scaled down version of Arians' offense to simplifying it and adding Patriots elements..lol. The next season, the Bucs offense looked closer to the Patriots than anything that Arians has ever drawn up.

Again, being a system QB doesn't mean that you can't QB. Mastering a system system for all those years is why they were elite. They know everything about it and while in that offense, has seen everything that can counteract certain things. That's how they got better with certain things. And this was actually during a time when skill actually mattered, instead of today where skill players outweigh QB skill.

I see your points, but i’d argue Brees was pretty good before Payton it just took a while for san diego to field a decent team around him. Same goes for when he came to the saints. Once he got the pieces(o line being the most important piece) he took his play to another level. Not a shot at coach SP, he was good in his own right, but Brees is a hall of famer and would have been good no matter what system. It’s more about having the right players around you.