Derek Carr - Why People Dislike Him (IMO) (2 Viewers)

[Elvis]

Nah, it reeks of the lack of nuance. Coaching matters and the most successful quarterbacks we have in the league with the best offenses have THE BEST COACHES. It is not nitpicking, but it is laying out the reality of the situation and this is a key reason why evaluating QBs based on performance is the worse.

Think about the QBs you don't consider "mid." Now think of who is coaching them. It's really that simple...lol


This actually points to something that I've said for a while. A lot of folks really didn't pay attention to the progression of our offense that season, especially after the Giants game. He wasn't on a leash per se. It's called installing an offense and it got started later than usual because the entire training camp and up until the last game of the pre-season, he was competing with Taysom. Knowing the coach that Sean Payton is, he began building his offense around Winston and if folks really paid attention, they could see it open up more. If he was named starter before the summer, that "leash" narrative wouldn't exist. lol

But this is also the perfect bridge to show that Pete Carmichael doesn't build around a player's strength and because Carr is really not a good fit for the offense, his deficiencies are magnified.

You can nuance yourself into a tangled mess of excuses, which is what I think you've done above. The cream always rises to the top though. A great QB is going to show through mid coaching. A great coach can make a mid QB serviceable. Carr has never shown much through his mid coaching and isn't right now. Jameis hasn't either. But Jameis did look serviceable with Payton.

That we're even arguing about it means we're mid to bad at both coaching and QB. If there isn't a plan to get better at both, there is no plan.

 

[Jesse Custer]

That we're even arguing about it means we're mid to bad at both coaching and QB. If there isn't a plan to get better at both, there is no plan.

You guys are basically arguing to arrive at the same conclusion.

 

[Elvis]

You guys are basically arguing to arrive at the same conclusion.

Perhaps, but I refuse to celebrate or throw credit to anybody for being mid. They'll get the "serviceable under perfect circumstances" label from me. That goes for Carr and Jameis, but also for Pete and DA. Where we are sitting is that none of them are serviceable together on this team and there is no replacing one person to fix the rest of them. It's just not reality to think that we are one person away from being competitive against the good teams in the league. A great coach might cover for one of the mid QBs. A great QB might cover some for poor coaching. That would only put us on top of this awful division, not make us Super Bowl contenders.

 

[BayouSAINTJoe]

"Love the city and it'll love you back"

Has Carr emerged from Mandeville to do any kind of community engagement in the city since he's been here?

 

[jahsoul357]

A great QB is going to show through mid coaching.

Who? It’s easy to say but when placed under scrutiny, it usually falls flat.

 

[BRSaint225]

"Love the city and it'll love you back"

Has Carr emerged from Mandeville to do any kind of community engagement in the city since he's been here?

Nope. Could be one of the issues as well. Not that he’s obligated, but if I’m new in a city as a QB I’ll try to get hip to how the people operate and function so I can better serve. Leadership 101. He could have and I could be wrong but I haven’t seen it. I don’t think now is a good time either lol

 

[Elvis]

Who? It’s easy to say but when placed under scrutiny, it usually falls flat.

Without even digging deep at all. Brady has been good everywhere and with anyone. Everyone who has had to perform without him has been awful.

 

[Rouxble]

Without even digging deep at all. Brady has been good everywhere and with anyone. Everyone who has had to perform without him has been awful.

Peyton Manning is another QB who was good everywhere and with anyone, and his coaches didn't find nearly the success without him as they did with him.

You can take any good offensive coach and look at the QB's they've coached, and you'll find that they have tremendously different performances depending on who is under center. They are masters of tailoring the offense to their QB, but can't seem to figure it out when they don't have their guy. Here are some QB ratings of note, only going with QB's that have started at least one game under these coaches:

Reid with Mahomes, Smith, Vick, and McNabb - 93.5
Reid with anyone else - 74.6

Shanahan with Purdy or Garoppolo - 102.8
Shanahan with anyone else - 82.9

McDaniel with Tua - 105.1
McDaniel with anyone else - 72.2

Payton with Brees - 101.5
Payton with any other Saint - 89.3 (worth noting he had Winston at a 101.5)

 

[Rouxble]

What if Carr just isn't in sync with the rhythm of Pete's playcalling. For instance how many times have we seen Pete call shot plays on 3rd down and short?
More than that, if Carr is uncomfortable in the pocket it's because Pete has made him that way. It started out with the offensive line being an issue, but that has improved.

When Carr is comfortable and in rhythm and feels good about his game, he calls his own shots. However, when you have Pete forcing plays, putting the offense in bad situations then asking Carr to bail them out on 3rd and forever, you can see why the guy is skittish. After that week 4 game i literally said aloud, if Pete keeps calling plays like this he's going to get Carr killed and to date we've learned he has 3 broken ribs and 2 concussions this year alone.

Pete's getting him lit up like he's Kurt Warner in a Mike Martz system.

I don’t think all of those deep shots on 3rd and short were on PC, many times Carr was throwing what looked like an alert route when the progression underneath was open, that or he waited for plays to develop down field when the underneath option was open with a chance for a first. That happened on the play he was hurt on against GB, Graham was open with a chance at a first and the deep routes had 5-6 defenders deep against three receivers.

I think what appears to be your main theory of putting too much in Carr’s hands likely is a bigger culprit in his down year, asking him to throw 50+ times in close games probably isn’t going to work. That said, there’s probably a lot of pressure to put up some big passing numbers this year to justify that contract, if we sent him out there with a Dalton offense to get Dalton numbers then the immediate question would be why did we sign the guy?

Since at this point he is putting up worse than Dalton numbers, that question has come up anyway.

 

[BRSaint225]

Peyton Manning is another QB who was good everywhere and with anyone, and his coaches didn't find nearly the success without him as they did with him.

You can take any good offensive coach and look at the QB's they've coached, and you'll find that they have tremendously different performances depending on who is under center. They are masters of tailoring the offense to their QB, but can't seem to figure it out when they don't have their guy. Here are some QB ratings of note, only going with QB's that have started at least one game under these coaches:

Reid with Mahomes, Smith, Vick, and McNabb - 93.5
Reid with anyone else - 74.6

Shanahan with Purdy or Garoppolo - 102.8
Shanahan with anyone else - 82.9

McDaniel with Tua - 105.1
McDaniel with anyone else - 72.2

Payton with Brees - 101.5
Payton with any other Saint - 89.3 (worth noting he had Winston at a 101.5)

Uhh i recall manning being benched in Denver and the defense carrying him that year. Also got smacked by Seattle in the SB. I do agree overall that Denver was still better off with him since he got a SB there with them. Just saying it wasn’t all rainbows for manning, but he’s never been a locker room problem for sure.

 

[Rouxble]

Uhh i recall manning being benched in Denver and the defense carrying him that year. Also got smacked by Seattle in the SB. I do agree overall that Denver was still better off with him since he got a SB there with them. Just saying it wasn’t all rainbows for manning, but he’s never been a locker room problem for sure.

Fair, but that was in his last season (2015) when he was 39. His arm was clearly done. Before that, he hadn’t posted a QB rating below 90 since 2002.

 

[Jesse Custer]

Payton with Brees - 101.5
Payton with any other Saint - 89.3 (worth noting he had Winston at a 101.5)

This to me shows just how good an offensive coach Payton is, because he was able to coach almost any QB on the roster to decent numbers.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

I don’t think all of those deep shots on 3rd and short were on PC, many times Carr was throwing what looked like an alert route when the progression underneath was open, that or he waited for plays to develop down field when the underneath option was open with a chance for a first. That happened on the play he was hurt on against GB, Graham was open with a chance at a first and the deep routes had 5-6 defenders deep against three receivers.

I think what appears to be your main theory of putting too much in Carr’s hands likely is a bigger culprit in his down year, asking him to throw 50+ times in close games probably isn’t going to work. That said, there’s probably a lot of pressure to put up some big passing numbers this year to justify that contract, if we sent him out there with a Dalton offense to get Dalton numbers then the immediate question would be why did we sign the guy?

Since at this point he is putting up worse than Dalton numbers, that question has come up anyway.

To me the execution may not be on Pete sure, but the playcall as well as the play selection is def on Pete. If a guy has proven he's going to struggle executing in certain scenarios, why do you run the offense in such a way that continues to put him in those very scenarios? Carr is flawed, Pete's playcalling is exasperating those flaws rather than hiding them.

 

[Rouxble]

This to me shows just how good an offensive coach Payton is, because he was able to coach almost any QB on the roster to decent numbers.

I was definitely impressed by his non-Brees number. There’s a ceiling (coaching has limits), but it’s higher than what the other coaches have shown. Bridgewater and Winston are probably better options than what some of the other coaches had, but regardless he found a way to get a lot out of them and others.

 

[Elvis]

Uhh i recall manning being benched in Denver and the defense carrying him that year. Also got smacked by Seattle in the SB. I do agree overall that Denver was still better off with him since he got a SB there with them. Just saying it wasn’t all rainbows for manning, but he’s never been a locker room problem for sure.

I'm not going to hold his 17th and final year when his body was breaking down rapidly against him. He just couldn't perform physically anymore. Just the prior year he had 39 TDs and to only 15 INTs.