Derek Carr - Why People Dislike Him (IMO) (1 Viewer)

[Rouxble]

Are you saying PC refuses to run them?

PC is calling them, Carr is getting out of the progressions for them. The weak side option was a staple of Gruden’s offense, and I’m pretty sure we run it every game. My guess is it’s one of the concepts that Gruden told us to use this year.

Sometimes the pocket collapses, can’t fault Carr for that, but there are plenty of examples of him taking the easy out when the pocket is clean (earlier in the season it was low percentage alert throws, later in the season it’s low percentage checkdowns).

 

[Rouxble]

While leading the #3 offense in both yards and points.

One day, someone will actually break down the Bucs 2019 season. Imagine when people realize the entire narrative of the season is really around 4 games..lol.

-They lost 3 NFC games where they averaged nearly 30 points a game, won the turnover battle, AND Winston had a passer rating of over 100
-They were knocked out of playoff contention during the middle of a 4 game winning streak and a 7-7 record.
-16 of his 30 interceptions came in 4 games. He threw interceptions in less games than Drew did in 2010.
-Macro allows


I'll have to disagree with you here. We saw 2016 Derek Carr and, skill wise, Winston is actually a better QB than most in the league. (his biggest issue has always been trusting his arm and receivers a little too much).

Every QB has flaws and great coaching work around them. There is a reason you won't see Mahomes take a 7 step drop while performing a full field read and letting the ball go on schedule but you saw it from Alex Smith. There is no perfect QB; only the scheme to match their skillset. If you think neither Carr nor Winston have skillsets that can be successful in this league, then you really haven't looked at film or broken down their game. I've said this before and people took it all kinds of wrong.

Carr would excel in the offense the Saints ran from 2017-2020. He is a WCO guy and the offense during the latter Brees years would suit him much better. We would still have to figure out the red zone, as that has translated across schemes and coaches.
If you give Winston a variation of the 2011 Saints offense (Coryell based that is run/play-action heavy attacking the entire field vertically), we would probably have one of the best offenses in the league because that offense checks every box that Winston is legitimately elite in

Carr has been jittery even in our horizontal stretch concepts, rushing the hank concept for instance when it isn’t warranted. Watch Trevor Lawrence run the same concept and they chop up defenses, while several times I’ve seen Carr throw the flat route early and/or read the coverage in the wrong direction. His best West Coast game was probably week two, and that seems like it was 100 years ago.

I wonder if McDaniels followed by several weeks of Trevor Penning have broken Carr beyond repair, we should be able to get at least Dalton level production from this guy.

 

[jahsoul357]

Carr has been jittery even in our horizontal stretch concepts, rushing the hank concept for instance when it isn’t warranted. Watch Trevor Lawrence run the same concept and they chop up defenses, while several times I’ve seen Carr throw the flat route early and/or read the coverage in the wrong direction. His best West Coast game was probably week two, and that seems like it was 100 years ago.

I wonder if McDaniels followed by several weeks of Trevor Penning have broken Carr beyond repair, we should be able to get at least Dalton level production from this guy.

Week 2 does seem forever but truth is, that's what he is best in and that should be the base of our offense. Pete is a Coryell guy and always has been and building around Carr's actual strength would require more heavy lifting.

I don't think Carr is broken beyond repair because a lot of the "issues" that we see today was on his draft report. It's really about working around them.

*edit*
From Bleacher Report (2014)
Majority of his strengths were centered around his arm strength and how he throws the ball but the negatives...

 

[sfidc3]

Best of circumstances? Whatis that? I guarantee that if SP was here we'd be at least 9-4 maybe 10-3 and already have won the division , WITH the same personnel. DC had quite a few moments of being an above-average to very good QB in LV when he had good coaching, heck even when Del Rio was HC he was 3rd in the MVP voting and they went 12-4 and Del Rio is not a great coach

Maybe, but I guarantee you that SP wouldn't tolerate Carr if he acted like he has under DA (which he probably wouldn't).....SP would roll with Jameis....no problem.....

I doubt SP would go after Carr in FA anyways....my point remains, Carr has not helped this team get better with his play, there is no denying that......

 

[Jesse Custer]

Maybe, but I guarantee you that SP wouldn't tolerate Carr if he acted like he has under DA (which he probably wouldn't).....SP would roll with Jameis....no problem.....

I doubt SP would go after Carr in FA anyways....my point remains, Carr has not helped this team get better with his play, there is no denying that......

I'll be totally honest here. I think if Jameis didn't get injured against Tampa, Sean is still the coach here. That '21 season took everything he had after Jameis went down.

 

[sfidc3]

I'll be totally honest here. I think if Jameis didn't get injured against Tampa, Sean is still the coach here. That '21 season took everything he had after Jameis went down.

I think that was definitely part of it.....I also am beginning to think more and more that there was a power struggle between CSP and the FO (namely Loomis) and Gayle sided with Loomis....just a hunch, no evidence.....

 

[Elvis]

I'll have to disagree with you here. We saw 2016 Derek Carr and, skill wise, Winston is actually a better QB than most in the league. (his biggest issue has always been trusting his arm and receivers a little too much).

I know I brought it up, but I don't want to turn this into a Jameis debate. We've had plenty of those. But both of these guys have been in the league for close to a decade, with several head coaches and coordinators. They have a combined 2 playoff appearances (both losses by Carr). I can't remember a revival of a bad QB career ever occurring this far into a QBs career. Not that they can't be starting QBs, but that they aren't turning into the strong part of a team. That is what I'm talking about. I acknowledge coaching is essential for these kind of players, but it takes a unicorn of a coach to turn them into stars you don't have to worry about. We'll never know what Payton could have done with Jameis ( I thought he made him less likely to turn the ball over, but also made him boring). I think that is where we are at the moment. We either need a unicorn coach for our current QBs or we need a new QB and coach. Coach we can do now, QB we can do in the draft though Carr will be around for a while.

 

[Rouxble]

Week 2 does seem forever but truth is, that's what he is best in and that should be the base of our offense. Pete is a Coryell guy and always has been and building around Carr's actual strength would require more heavy lifting.

I don't think Carr is broken beyond repair because a lot of the "issues" that we see today was on his draft report. It's really about working around them.

*edit*
From Bleacher Report (2014)
Majority of his strengths were centered around his arm strength and how he throws the ball but the negatives...

Reads like a 2023 scouting report for him.

And yes, the less you ask him to do the better he’ll be, but that goes back to the idea that there’s a lot of players who we could acquire for less that can operate within a limited offense (it’s why I keep bringing up Dalton). The basis of the WCO was developed when Bill Walsh needed to come up with an offensive game plan for a weak armed Virgil Carter, although it has grown over the years to put the same principles in the hands of more talented passers.

 

[Jesse Custer]

We'll never know what Payton could have done with Jameis ( I thought he made his less likely to turn the ball over, but also made him boring). I think that is where we are at the moment. We either need a unicorn coach for our current QBs or we need a new QB and coach. Coach we can do now, QB we can do in the draft though Carr will be around for a while.

New QB and coach. I've seen what Payton has done with a Russ who looked totally washed last season and I don't have much faith in anyone outside of Sean being able to make Jameis more serviceable. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see Jameis sign in Denver as a backup just to be with Sean again.

 

[jahsoul357]

I know I brought it up, but I don't want to turn this into a Jameis debate. We've had plenty of those.

It's not a debate, as both (along with Dalton) have been our starting QBs the last 2 seasons, so a conversation around what could help them succeed

But both of these guys have been in the league for close to a decade, with several head coaches and coordinators. They have a combined 2 playoff appearances (both losses by Carr). I can't remember a revival of a bad QB career ever occurring this far into a QBs career.

You are equating team success to QB with they aren't always exclusive (as most people on here will attest to when looking at our losing seasons).

And when bring up coaching.
-Derek Carr had DA (who was fired for just sucking), Del Rio (fired after he got rid of Musgrave), Gruden (Email-Gate), and JMD (SMH)
-Winston had Lovie Smith (who was fired for fielding a bad defense), Dirk Koetter (who was fired for fielding a horrible defense), and Bruce Arians (who ran a complex and volatile offense)

If you talk about bad QB career, it would be a lot of things that have to be ignored in reality and using team success is on the last things that we should use when determining that.

Not that they can't be starting QBs, but that they aren't turning into the strong part of a team.

Except they've already have been. 2015-2016 Carr and 2020 Carr was really good. And contrary to popular belief on here, Winston has always been a top half QB when objective stats/metrics were used and was the QB of the 3rd best offense in 2019.

That is what I'm talking about. I acknowledge coaching is essential for these kind of players, but it takes a unicorn of a coach to turn them into stars you don't have to worry about. We'll never know what Payton could have done with Jameis ( I thought he made his less likely to turn the ball over, but also made him boring). I think that is where we are at the moment. We either need a unicorn coach for our current QBs or we need a new QB and coach. Coach we can do now, QB we can do in the draft though Carr will be around for a while.

You don't need a unicorn coach. Just a coach to build around their strengths, just like every other QB. Honest question, what does "turn them into stars you don't have to worry about" actually means and what would we have to actually worry about?

The irony of it all is the QBs who we say are "the best in the league" are the ones with unicorn coaches....

New QB and coach. I've seen what Payton has done with a Russ who looked totally washed last season and I don't have much faith in anyone outside of Sean being able to make Jameis more serviceable. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see Jameis sign in Denver as a backup just to be with Sean again.

His 2018 numbers after getting his starting spot back was eerily similar his efficiency with Payton. Instead of keeping Monken and building on that, he got "no risk it, no biscuit." lol

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

PC is calling them, Carr is getting out of the progressions for them. The weak side option was a staple of Gruden’s offense, and I’m pretty sure we run it every game. My guess is it’s one of the concepts that Gruden told us to use this year.

Sometimes the pocket collapses, can’t fault Carr for that, but there are plenty of examples of him taking the easy out when the pocket is clean (earlier in the season it was low percentage alert throws, later in the season it’s low percentage checkdowns).

What if Carr just isn't in sync with the rhythm of Pete's playcalling. For instance how many times have we seen Pete call shot plays on 3rd down and short?
More than that, if Carr is uncomfortable in the pocket it's because Pete has made him that way. It started out with the offensive line being an issue, but that has improved.

When Carr is comfortable and in rhythm and feels good about his game, he calls his own shots. However, when you have Pete forcing plays, putting the offense in bad situations then asking Carr to bail them out on 3rd and forever, you can see why the guy is skittish. After that week 4 game i literally said aloud, if Pete keeps calling plays like this he's going to get Carr killed and to date we've learned he has 3 broken ribs and 2 concussions this year alone.

Pete's getting him lit up like he's Kurt Warner in a Mike Martz system.

 

[Elvis]

New QB and coach. I've seen what Payton has done with a Russ who looked totally washed last season and I don't have much faith in anyone outside of Sean being able to make Jameis more serviceable. Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised to see Jameis sign in Denver as a backup just to be with Sean again.

I think a guy like Jason Garrett could get more out of a lot of these QBs as an OC. He coached both Tony Romo and Dak into serviceable QBs. Where he failed was more as a head coach.

You don't need a unicorn coach. Just a coach to build around their strengths, just like every other QB. Honest question, what does "turn them into stars you don't have to worry about" actually means and what would we have to actually worry about?

I don't want to nitpick the coaches both of them have had with you. It reeks of excuse making for mid players and coaches. If they had been a good match, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

For the point you made that I quoted, I mean that you build a system that removes the bad tendencies and amplify their best tendencies and still has the QB looking like their natural selves. Jameis under Payton played like he was on a leash. It took away the things that made him who he is. That was both good and bad, but he certainly didn't look like he was playing with instinct. He looked like he was thinking about not turning the ball over every down and you don't want that. More time may have changed that to some degree, but it was not meant to be.

 

[BRSaint225]

The comments on the video of him saying he bood his son during math homework as a teaching moment are just awful. I don’t like the guy myself and want him gone asap but geesh. Dude really succeeded at p*ssin off an entire city in record time like I’ve never seen before.

 

[jahsoul357]

I don't want to nitpick the coaches both of them have had with you. It reeks of excuse making for mid players and coaches. If they had been a good match, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Nah, it reeks of the lack of nuance. Coaching matters and the most successful quarterbacks we have in the league with the best offenses have THE BEST COACHES. It is not nitpicking, but it is laying out the reality of the situation and this is a key reason why evaluating QBs based on performance is the worse. We don't take who is coaching them into consideration and the scheme into consideration.

Think about the QBs you don't consider "mid." Now think of who is coaching them. It's really that simple...lol

For the point you made that I quoted, I mean that you build a system that removes the bad tendencies and amplify their best tendencies and still has the QB looking like their natural selves. Jameis under Payton played like he was on a leash. It took away the things that made him who he is. That was both good and bad, but he certainly didn't look like he was playing with instinct. He looked like he was thinking about not turning the ball over every down and you don't want that. More time may have changed that to some degree, but it was not meant to be.

This actually points to something that I've said for a while. A lot of folks really didn't pay attention to the progression of our offense that season, especially after the Giants game. He wasn't on a leash per se. It's called installing an offense and it got started later than usual because the entire training camp and up until the last game of the pre-season, he was competing with Taysom. Knowing the coach that Sean Payton is, he began building his offense around Winston and if folks really paid attention, they could see it open up more. If he was named starter before the summer, that "leash" narrative wouldn't exist. lol

But this is also the perfect bridge to show that Pete Carmichael doesn't build around a player's strength and because Carr is really not a good fit for the offense, his deficiencies are magnified.

 

[jahsoul357]

The comments on the video of him saying he bood his son during math homework as a teaching moment are just awful. I don’t like the guy myself and want him gone asap but geesh. Dude really succeeded at p*ssin off an entire city in record time like I’ve never seen before.

It is SO weird, because as a follower of the Way, I listened to some of his sermons and I'm like "dang, he seems like a good dude." Then he starts losing and come off smug as crap...lol