Elvis' 2025 cap and roster cleanup proposal (27 Viewers)

[St. Widge]

That’s what training camp is for.

You don’t have to sabotage the competition to do this. Have them compete. If Rattler is the guy, a Derek Carr being on the roster shouldn’t prevent him from showing that.

I mean, there is no substitute for live action and you really can't get that in camp or pre-season games playing with soon to be insurance salesmen. If Rattler is ever going to be starting QB in the NFL he needs to get game times with the 1st string to see if he can correct his issues and they are issues that are not going to get better sitting on the bench. And you aren't going to be able to decide if you need to draft a QB in 2026 based on performance in camp or pre-season. And, as you know, there is very little room for a backup to develop during the season.

Regardless, wanting to see what Rattler has is a legit reason to move on from Carr this year.

 

[St. Widge]

I think most people believe that if Carr is on the roster, it's unlikely that Rattler wins the starting job. Some people seem like they want Rattler to be given the starting job no matter what, so they really want the Saints to move on from Carr to clear the way for Rattler to start.

I think there is a flawed assumption to that line of thinking. The assumption is that next year's starting QB will either be Carr or Rattler. It could very well be neither.

And I'd be fine with that. If they want to move on from Carr and find a way to bring in a potential long term solution not named Rattler that would be great. I just don't see the point in treading water for another year with Carr and I'm not sure we have the money or draft picks for another option other than Rattler. But, I would love to see Fields, Malik Willis, Milton, and maybe even Pickett brought in. Though I don't think that is what will happen. I think Carr will start for one more year.

 

[St. Geezy]

I mean, there is no substitute for live action and you really can't get that in camp or pre-season games playing with soon to be insurance salesmen. If Rattler is ever going to be starting QB in the NFL he needs to get game times with the 1st string to see if he can correct his issues and they are issues that are not going to get better sitting on the bench. And you aren't going to be able to decide if you need to draft a QB in 2026 based on performance in camp or pre-season. And, as you know, there is very little room for a backup to develop during the season.

Regardless, wanting to see what Rattler has is a legit reason to move on from Carr this year.

…but at the cost of all but completely zapping your roster flexibility for a year by not doing the restructure.

I see both sides, believe me. I am just not in a “concede a season or two” mindset I guess. I may be called delusional or whatever, but I just don’t think we are as bad off as many people think. We can salvage this thing with great coaching and better health, and supplementing the roster better, immediately.

 

[St. Widge]

…but at the cost of all but completely zapping your roster flexibility for a year by not doing the restructure.

I see both sides, believe me. I am just not in a “concede a season or two” mindset I guess. I may be called delusional or whatever, but I just don’t think we are as bad off as many people think. We can salvage this thing with great coaching and better health, and supplementing the roster better, immediately.

I don't think we are going to do much with the roster this year anyway. Loomis has been in soft reset mode for two years now. I think he will continue that this year and any real moves won't happen until 2026 when Demario, Cam, Tyrann, Hill, etc. are gone.

And I don't think we would be conceding the season to start Rattler or another potential long term solution. If the roster is good enough and healthy enough to win that can be done with QBs other than Carr. And if the roster isn't good enough, it doesn't really matter who the QB is. But, I would like to find out if we have a good young QB so we can know what has to be done in the 2026 or 2027 draft.

 

[Elvis]

Just got done watching NewOrleans.football's podcast (starts at 19:05) from today and they both believe that this is the year to tear it down and get the cap right if there was ever going to be a year to do it. Although Nick did say that if they we're going to do that then they need to go all in. That what we saw last year wasn't good and that doing that again isn't going to work. All in or all out.

As you know, I believe it must be done because we can't continue being held hostage by under performing, injured and old players with big back loaded cap charges on their contracts. It's not even just the money, it's the roster spots. Players need to be one more manageable bonus structures with more pay as you go salaries. The cost is one year of real cap tightening while a new head coach sees what he has and the following year a ton more options open up.

 

[Elvis]

And I'd be fine with that. If they want to move on from Carr and find a way to bring in a potential long term solution not named Rattler that would be great. I just don't see the point in treading water for another year with Carr and I'm not sure we have the money or draft picks for another option other than Rattler. But, I would love to see Fields, Malik Willis, Milton, and maybe even Pickett brought in. Though I don't think that is what will happen. I think Carr will start for one more year.

There are people that think this is all about Carr or all about Rattler and it never has been. It's about being able to change course when it's warranted. And it has been warranted over the last few years and it couldn't be done. Spending more of tomorrows money on today's problems doesn't solve this teams issues. It gets you 7-10, 9-8 and 5-12 and then another year older with bigger cap charges on players you'd rather move on from.

 

[NatureBoy]

I'm not a GM and don't want to be one, so I have no idea of how you get there, I'm just talking broad based strategy. We are rebuilding. No need for the old vets unless they are willing to be mentors for cap friendly salaries. You'll need some vets to play those roles, but at the right price. If it's not possible and cutting guys like this would basically have the same outcome as keeping them, then I guess we have to hold'em (thanks Mickey).

Ideally, NOW is the time to start building the foundation to a future championship calibre team. Any player you can not picture as being part of that future is expendable. Get the old guys out of the way (physically and financially). I couldn't be more thankful to guys like Cam, Taysom, etc. But they will not be cornerstones in our future. It's hard to say goodbye to these kind of guys, but as the line goes in an old Cowboy Mouth song, "I might love you, yeah, but I love me more." We should focus on doing whats right for the franchise in the long term. As I said in a previous thread, don't chase, build a future.

 

[Elvis]

I'm not a GM and don't want to be one, so I have no idea of how you get there, I'm just talking broad based strategy. We are rebuilding. No need for the old vets unless they are willing to be mentors for cap friendly salaries. You'll need some vets to play those roles, but at the right price. If it's not possible and cutting guys like this would basically have the same outcome as keeping them, then I guess we have to hold'em (thanks Mickey).

Ideally, NOW is the time to start building the foundation to a future championship calibre team. Any player you can not picture as being part of that future is expendable. Get the old guys out of the way (physically and financially). I couldn't be more thankful to guys like Cam, Taysom, etc. But they will not be cornerstones in our future. It's hard to say goodbye to these kind of guys, but as the line goes in an old Cowboy Mouth song, "I might love you, yeah, but I love me more." We should focus on doing whats right for the franchise in the long term. As I said in a previous thread, don't chase, build a future.

Having older players as mentors is a fair point. I see guys like Cam, Demario and Tyrann being more likely to mentor players in their position groups than I see Derek Carr doing so. So once again, if I had to choose which to kick the can on, it's the old defensive guys, not Carr.

 

[SailorJerrysHorse]

Having older players as mentors is a fair point. I see guys like Cam, Demario and Tyrann being more likely to mentor players in their position groups than I see Derek Carr doing so. So once again, if I had to choose which to kick the can on, it's the old defensive guys, not Carr.

Exactly. Guys like Jordan, DD, Tyrann will not only be mentors in the locker room and on the field, but also off of it in the community. They love this city and this franchise and that’s an important element, especially for us fans. If anyone deserves money for either not playing (dead money in the future) and/or limited play, it’s them.

 

[texasjefe]

Pay attention to history and past behavior, because it's the best indicator of future behavior.

Besides, you have to be in the room to read the room and none of us here are in any of the Saints' rooms to be reading them.


I know that's how you see it, but that doesn't mean Loomis or Moore see it the same way. Loomis always does the contracts with a future plan and multiple options in place that no one outside of the room sees coming. It happens every year.


This is how Loomis's flow chart works. 1. What football decision are we making. 2. Let me make the business side of it work for that football decision.

Loomis has never followed the flow you are suggesting. They will make a football decision first regarding keeping or moving on from Carr, then they will make that decision work from a business standpoint.

Since they are in the business of football, all of their business decisions start out as football decisions. It seems to me that some are just trying to set up a false premise that if Carr is kept, it was only for financial reasons and not because they like him as a QB.

It all seems like an attempt to create a preemptive, "I'm still right they Carr is no good and they don't he's good, even though they kept him." That's just how I see it. It's just my opinion. It may not be a preemptive argument. I'm not saying that as a personal shot at you. I'm just explaining what I think see happening from people who have made it clear for 2 years now that they want Carr gone.


That's one of the most bizarre false framing of what someone actually said that I've ever seen.


The previous status quo no longer exists. They are overhauling their coaching staff in a major way. Anything they do now will be to support the new head coach's new vision for the team. Anything that stays the same will not be the old status quo, it will be part of the new status quo under their new coach Moore.

Loomis very clearly said that the reason they chose Moore is because they were really impressed with his plan. If they keep Carr it won't be because Loomis made Moore keep him for "business" reasons, it will be because Carr is part of Moore's plan for however long they would keep him. Carr will not be forced on Moore.


You are assuming that Moore has the same vision and opinion that you do, so you're telling yourself that if the Saints do something you don't agree with, then it has to be Loomis making a "business" decision and not Moore making a football decision.

It's preemptive bias confirmation in my opinion.


They have a whole lot of other tools and options besides just "parking" it in only one of two years, like you suggest are their only two options. They have more options and tools than anyone outside the organization ever sees coming. It happens every year for over ten years now.

If the Saints move on from Carr, it will be a football decision by Moore. If they keep Carr, it will also be a football decision by Moore. I have no idea which one they will do, because we have zero history on how Moore typically runs a team. Just like we had no idea what Payton would do in his first year.

I was hoping that Payton would give working with Brooks a shot, He didn't. I moved on. If the Saints cut Carr, I'll move on knowing they made a more informed football decision than anyone of us outside the team are in any position to make.


And this seems to be what it all boils down to for you.

You can't fathom Moore might like Carr as part of his plan. You think that keeping Carr on his current contract or extending him is out of the question, dumb and unacceptable. You have that opinion even though you aren't in the room, but you think you're reading the room that you're not in. You can't read a room from outside the room.

If the Saints keep or extend Carr, it will be Moore's well informed and calculated football decision to to field the best team he thinks he can field. Not accepting or believing that doesn't change that reality.

Indeed, you are a proponent of 'football first, then business.'

Conversely, I subscribe to the theorem of 'shirtpile so high, time to cut the crap.'

As recent as a week ago, I was saying keep Carr another year to avoid his big dead cap, regardless of role. Then in threads this week, we've talked about that maybe the cap space you can get back by chopping him off is the best value, at the cost of a likely record-setting dead cap. That restructuring him is sad if he's not the future.

So yes I'm wondering what happens if he goes. I'm not a fan. He does not put enough points on the board, for all his vibe, and never did.

The best thing Mickey Loomis can do for Kellen Moore long-term is turn over the roster, and clear cap space as fast as he can to build the new roster. Change is coming. Business is business.

 

[DSnfla]

I believe Elvis has shown a way that we get more cap space if we get rid of Carr this year and it doesn't involve cutting Cam/Demario/Tyrann/Hill and actually extends the contract of some of the "young core". But, even if you are right and it's the same result, IMO there is an advantage to finding out what we have in Rattler or another young QB before we have to decide if we need to draft a QB high in 2026.

It also involves restructuring Cam,DD, Mathieu and Hill forcing us to keep them even more past their prime. Something everyone has been complaining about for 2 seasons. Also assumes TH takes a pay cut. Signing Young to an extension how much we don't know or how long, The estimates are that Young will get 17 mil a yr so that's overpaying for him. Extending JJ for 3 yrs tying us to him making an upgrade harder. Plus we lose Adebo

Yes we will get $ back on 6/2 but any FAs including our own would have to agree and with 2 1/2 months to sign the contract.

What it also does is pretty much guarantee 2 throw away yrs with no viable winning option @QB . Who do you think the fanbase will feel sucking for the better part of 2 yrs all with the premise of " We're getting rid of Carr and getting the cap sorta manageable"

 

[StudioSaint]

There are people that think this is all about Carr or all about Rattler and it never has been. It's about being able to change course when it's warranted.

Moore may not agree with you that the course needs to be changed away from Carr. It is absolutely all about Carr when every speculated scenario for improvement involves getting rid of Carr.

In your opinion, do you think there is a way to improve the team and be more competitive while keeping Carr as the starting QB for 1 to 3 seasons? If the answer is no, then it's most definitely about getting rid of Carr.

 

[StudioSaint]

Indeed, you are a proponent of 'football first, then business.'

The Saints are solely in the "business" of football. That's an irrefutable objective fact, whether someone accepts it or not.

As recent as a week ago, I was saying keep Carr another year to avoid his big dead cap, regardless of role. Then in threads this week, we've talked about that maybe the cap space you can get back by chopping him off is the best value, at the cost of a likely record-setting dead cap. That restructuring him is sad if he's not the future.

That's an opinion and clearly is your opinion. The Saints may have the same opinion, but they may not. I don't know. None of us do.

What we all know is that every year people on this site say that the Saints "only have these options, they don't have any other choice." Then the Saints choose options that no one here considered or saw coming.

That's why I don't tell myself that "these are the only choices the Saints have." None of us are in the room, so none of us ever know all of the options that they have.

The best thing Mickey Loomis can do for Kellen Moore....

You haven't talked to Kellen Moore about what he thinks is best for him long term and what he wants for himself long term. Yet, you don't hesitate to think you know what's best for him.

I have no idea what's best for Moore or what he wants. I do know that any current players the Saints will be kept because Moore wanted to keep them.

Change is coming.

Change has already come. Any player under contract that is kept will be kept because Moore wants to keep them. Any player under contract that is released or traded will be released or traded because Moore wanted to release or trade them.

Business is business.

And that business is undeniably winning as many football games as possible each and every year. No team ever decides to not win as many games as they can every year.

It's very obvious that a lot of fans and internet sports "journalists" aren't capable of understanding that the coaches and front offices have a very different perspective and opinions about the "business" of football. If someone wants to get a better insight into how coaches and front offices think, they should listen to current and former successful coaches and front officer personal. They should pay a lot less attention to the opinions of players and "journalists" who don't have any experience at all as a coaches or front office personnel.

Mora was 100% right when he said, "you don't know. You think you do, but you don't. And you never will." My opinions all come from what the successful coaches and front office personnel have said through the years. They are the ones I pay attention to. I tune out everyone else.

 

[DSnfla]

Moore may not agree with you that the course needs to be changed away from Carr. It is absolutely all about Carr when every speculated scenario for improvement involves getting rid of Carr.

In your opinion, do you think there is a way to improve the team and be more competitive while keeping Carr as the starting QB for 1 to 3 seasons? If the answer is no, then it's most definitely about getting rid of Carr.

Exactly, it is about getting rid of DC NOW. Everyone knows that DC is not the long term answer @QB. But there IS no long term answer and we don't now if there is one on the horizon. DC can be a bridge QB and a pretty good one provided we build the TEAM all the while. Even designating him a post 6'1 cut makes it so we will have to restructure a lot of people that we should not be restructuring. Plus it means we will more than likely lose our own FAs

It would also mean that we will more than likely suck for at least 2 yrs. How bad do they think the fan base will be when we go 3-14 and 5-12 for the next 2 yrs? Keeping DC for 2 yrs, getting younger at some positions, adding talent through the draft and getting the cap more to the middle. All the while competing for a division title and the playoffs is much more plausible. I think some of there people have cap $$ in their eyes and feel the need to be 100 mil under the cap. FA is not the best way to a championship , the draft is

 

[DSnfla]

The Saints are solely in the "business" of football. That's an irrefutable objective fact, whether someone accepts it or not.


That's an opinion and clearly is your opinion. The Saints may have the same opinion, but they may not. I don't know. None of us do.

What we all know is that every year people on this site say that the Saints "only have theses options, they don't have any other choice." Then the Saints choose options that no one here considered or saw coming.

That's why I don't tell myself that "these are the only choices the Saints have." None of us are in the room, so none of us ever know all of the options that they have.


You haven't talked to Kellen Moore about what he thinks is best for him long term and what he wants for himself long term. Yet, you don't hesitate to think you know what's best for him.

I have no idea what's best for Moore or what he wants. I do know that any current players the Saints will be kept because Moore wanted to keep them.


Change has already come. Any player under contract that is kept will be kept because Moore wants to keep them. Any player under contract that is released or traded will be released or traded because Moore wanted to release or trade them.


And that business is undeniably winning as many football games as possible each and every year. No team ever decides to not win as many games as they can every year.

It's very obvious that a lot of fans aren't capable of understanding that the coaches and front offices have a very different perspective and opinions about the "business" of football.

Underhill said that one of the things they liked about KM in the meeting is that he had a great plan on how to get us back to contention. All that I have gathered about ML is that he is NOT in favor of a total teardown and rebuild. So it's my guess that is what KM will want to do