Israel (now broader Mid East discussion) (12 Viewers)

[DaveXA]

I am talking about people not going from Northern Gaza to Southern Gaza.

Egypt isn't making a choice to drop bombs that they know will kill civilians.

I"m going to stop, because even though I don't really consider this back and forth political, i'm afraid the mods might have a different view. It's certainly not partisan.

I should have taken this to MAP from the start.

We're inbounds so far. But yeah, ultimately this gets to what our posture is vis a vis foreign policy. The line is more or less partisan bickering we want to avoid.

We won't quite see eye to eye on whether Israel is doing too much or not. But I do respect your POV.

 

[Heathen Saint]

I think we're past the point of weighing the ethical concerns since the sneak attack on the 7th.

Ethical concerns take a back seat for the duration of wars. It isn't a question of good, bad, or ugly, It's reality.

Hopefully it's less of a reality in the future. I'd think that should be the goal.

We don't have to accept war equivocating to mass casualty - as if it's an unspoken law (not that you're saying that).

That being said - yeah, it's how homo sapiens historically deals with conflict..and it's pretty terrible.

 

[DaveXA]

What is going on now will only create more extremists than they eliminate. Nothing short of killing everyone in Gaza is going to make this a better outcome for the long term safety of Israel.

We've been trying to bomb terrorism out of existence for decades, it never works. Israel is repeating the mistakes we made in the years following 2001. Mistakes that led to the existence of ISIS.

Ill bow out because i don't want to pollute the thread with my naive takes.

I don't think you're naive at all. Maybe idealistic, which isn't a bad thing. I for one appreciate your takes. We should all at least give consideration to whether our own views are reasonable, realistic or right.

I have room to change my mind when convinced of something.

 

[SamAndreas]

I don't think you're naive at all. Maybe idealistic, which isn't a bad thing. I for one appreciate your takes. We should all at least give consideration to whether our own views are reasonable, realistic or right.

I have room to change my mind when convinced of something.

Nor do I. I generally like WhoDatPhan78's posts, and kind humanity. He's just trying to talk about stuff here that's moot.

 

[not2rich]

People aren't leaving Gaza because there is no fuel of transportation.

People continued to flee after that IED exploded. That isn't the reason that people are not leaving Northern Gaza.

The hospital explosion wouldn't be an example of something that would keep people in Northern Gaza, if anything it would make them want to leave, regardless of who they believe was responsible.

Maybe there is no fuel or transportation because Hamas is using what little they have for themselves.

It doesn't matter to me. Israel is choosing to drop bombs that they know will kill civilians because they are angry. Israel is less safe today than it was on 10/8.

They might take out Hamas, but every kid in Gaza is going to grow up hating Israel far more than they would have otherwise even. Whatever replaces Hamas will be much worse. The only way this ends up making Israel safer in the long run is if they kill everyone in Gaza.

I agree with you, but at the same time - what are Israel’s alternatives? They can’t not respond in some kind of forceful way. We would do the same in their shoes.

 

[DaveXA]

I agree with you, but at the same time - what are Israel’s alternatives? They can’t not respond in some kind of forceful way. We would do the same in their shoes.

We did after 9/11. No question some of our reaction was overdone, so we don't really have a whole lot of high ground to talk from.

 

[superchuck500]

Scenes from Ireland and Scotland

 

[SamAndreas]

I've taken some time viewing the response from the US and around the world. It's my opinion that Israel has used it's grace period which was generated by Hamas' sneak attack, however that period of grace is now over.

In so far as support from our current administration in Washington, Israel's options are quite limited to only directly attacking Hamas, without a broad ground offensive in Gaza.

It's been approximately 20 days of grace. Now it's over. The US will certainly defend Israel from attack from outside powers like Iran. However the US will not sanction a broad attack upon the civilians in Gaza, nor in my opinion should they.

An interesting letter from Biden to the House and Senate came across my attention while assessing the world state of opinion. This letter reads into this Israel Issue, although it doesn't mention Israel. It shows where the limits are. Very limited attacks which were "to limit the risk of escalation and avoid civilian casualties."

It is almost like that message is focused upon Israel.

Letter to the Speaker of the House and President pro tempore of the Senate consistent with the War Powers Resolution (Public Law 93-148) | The White House

Dear Mr. Speaker: (Dear Madam President:)As I have reported previously, militia groups affiliated with Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC)

www.whitehouse.gov

 

[DaveXA]

I've taken some time viewing the response from the US and around the world. It's my opinion that Israel has used it's grace period which was generated by Hamas' sneak attack, however that period of grace is now over.

In so far as support from our current administration in Washington, Israel's options are quite limited to only directly attacking Hamas, without a broad ground offensive in Gaza.

It's been approximately 20 days of grace. Now it's over. The US will certainly defend Israel from attack from outside powers like Iran. However the US will not sanction a broad attack upon the civilians in Gaza, nor in my opinion should they.

An interesting letter from Biden to the House and Senate came across my attention while assessing the world state of opinion. This letter reads into this Israel Issue, although it doesn't mention Israel. It shows where the limits are. Very limited attacks which were "to limit the risk of escalation and avoid civilian casualties."

It is almost like that message is focused upon Israel.

Letter to the Speaker of the House and President pro tempore of the Senate consistent with the War Powers Resolution (Public Law 93-148) | The White House

Dear Mr. Speaker: (Dear Madam President:)As I have reported previously, militia groups affiliated with Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRGC)

www.whitehouse.gov

I saw that letter. I agree 100%. Isreal has to tread carefully going forward. They need to detain and remove obvious civilians found on the battlefield and provide passage to south Gaza or to a safe agreed upon location and do what they need to do in northern Gaza.

Bibi doesn't have much goodwill left and I'm pretty much at the limit as well. I don't know how much we've learned from our mistakes made post 9/11, but once we went beyond Afghanistan I became far more skeptical about our 9/11 response. And we took a lot longer than 20 days.

The thing is, Gaza is a far, far different situation than anything else because there are so many civilians still in harm's way. It's sad.

I really wish Israel had taken a cue from what we did and build a coalition that would have given far more time for Israel deal with Hamas. They don't have that luxury now and unfortunately, they're gonna overplay their hand and end up isolating themselves, which will lead to who knows what.

Biden and NATO need to talk some sense into Bibi...but good luck with that. I think the Israeli people need to make it clear to Bibi that this isn't what they want. That might be the only thing that would persuade him.

 

[baarbogast]

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

I doubt this is new information to them. I don't think any gay person was supporting the people in Gaza because they thought the Palestinians were progressive about gay rights.

Israel is very progressive in that respect.

 

[baarbogast]

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

Somewhere along the way the Palestinian cause has been thrown in with BLM, LGBQT, and climate actvism even though Hamas would put all of them up against the wall if given the chance.

 

[bclemms]

Somewhere along the way the Palestinian cause has been thrown in with BLM, LGBQT, and climate actvism even though Hamas would put all of them up against the wall if given the chance.

It's nothing new. Groups that have been repressed tend to side with groups that have been repressed regardless how their beliefs align elsewhere.

Certainly not saying the Jewish people haven't been repressed through history but recent history they have been the oppressors (regardless of validity).

 

[bclemms]

We did after 9/11. No question some of our reaction was overdone, so we don't really have a whole lot of high ground to talk from.

Yeah, we lack any high ground with our response from 9/11. From excusing the Saudi's because of financial and oil ties to WMD's, our long term failure of Afghanistan to the passing of the Patriot Act it was a complete failure on many levels.