Israel (now broader Mid East discussion) (5 Viewers)

[WhoDatPhan78]

I think we're past the point of weighing the ethical concerns since the sneak attack on the 7th.

Ethical concerns take a back seat for the duration of wars. It isn't a question of good, bad, or ugly, It's reality.

Yea, i guess anything Israel decides to do has to be fine, because it's war.

 

[DaveXA]

Not many people in Gaza today were alive in the 1960s. Citing history about what is going on right now isn't very useful. Both sides can point to historical events that make the other side wrong.

It's the most densely populated area in the world for a reason. I mean, if people are going to say things don't happen in a vacuum.

How is someone in Northern Gaza right now supposed to get to southern Gaza?

It's unfortunate not all were able to move. They should have started 10+ days ago. Some certainly did, but some deliberately stayed knowing the risks.

Also, Southern Gaza isn't safe from air strikes, so going there won't necessarily make them safe.

True. Safer than the north, but that's relative.

It is a cop out for Kirby to suggest that the reason there are people in Northern Gaza is because Hamas is using them as human shields. Hamas might be counting on them being human shields, but Hamas isn't forcing them to stay. The people don't really have any other option.

Hamas isnt helping them leave either. If they were serious, they'd help those peole leave. But no, they'd rather have their "shields".

Hamas and Israel are both treating the people in Gaza like human shields.

Maybe, but Hamas declared war. They have hundreds of hostages. They're embedded throughout civilian infrastructure. It's going to be a mess regardless until Hamas returns hostages and relinquishes their power to Palestinians.

 

[SamAndreas]

Not many people in Gaza today were alive in the 1960s. Citing history about what is going on right now isn't very useful. Both sides can point to historical events that make the other side wrong.

How is someone in Northern Gaza right now supposed to get to southern Gaza?

Also, Southern Gaza isn't safe from air strikes, so going there won't necessarily make them safe.

It is a cop out for Kirby to suggest that the reason there are people in Northern Gaza is because Hamas is using them as human shields. Hamas might be counting on them being human shields, but Hamas isn't forcing them to stay. The people don't really have any other option.

Hamas and Israel are both treating the people in Gaza like human shields.

I saw an IED being blown up on a busy road that was filled with people trying to get to south Gaza a few days ago. It killed some people and had the effect of stopping that road traffic to the south.

Hamas claimed that it was an areal bomb that Israel dropped, but that was obviously a lie. It was a relatively small surface bomb that Hamas planted to stop their human shields from escaping.

I expect that it was a case of them sending a truck down the road with a bomb in the back. They reached a choke point where the truck had the ability to go on for enough distance to be safe, and they pitched it off the back of the truck with a short timed delay fuse.

Then there was the hospital they blew up, but claimed that Israel blew up. They claimed hundreds had died, when the reality was that very few died.

 

[baarbogast]

 

[SamAndreas]

Yea, i guess anything Israel decides to do has to be fine, because it's war.

Yes, pretty much. I would think a better word choice than "fine" would have been "necessary". In war the attacked party gets to decide what is necessary.

I'm watching what is happening, not mincing politically over what I cannot change in the slightest. When I see our leaders being practical I approve of that. But no matter what I think of that I am powerless to affect that outcome, the dice has been cast.

 

[baarbogast]

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

I saw an IED being blown up on a busy road that was filled with people trying to get to south Gaza a few days ago. It killed some people and had the effect of stopping that road traffic to the south.

Hamas claimed that it was an areal bomb that Israel dropped, but that was obviously a lie. It was a relatively small surface bomb that Hamas planted to stop their human shields from escaping.

I expect that it was a case of them sending a truck down the road with a bomb in the back. They reached a choke point where the truck had the ability to go on for enough distance to be safe, and they pitched it off the back of the truck with a short timed delay fuse.

Then there was the hospital they blew up, but claimed that Israel blew up. They claimed hundreds had died, when the reality was that very few died.

People aren't leaving Gaza because there is no fuel of transportation.

People continued to flee after that IED exploded. That isn't the reason that people are not leaving Northern Gaza.

The hospital explosion wouldn't be an example of something that would keep people in Northern Gaza, if anything it would make them want to leave, regardless of who they believe was responsible.

Maybe there is no fuel or transportation because Hamas is using what little they have for themselves.

It doesn't matter to me. Israel is choosing to drop bombs that they know will kill civilians because they are angry. Israel is less safe today than it was on 10/8.

They might take out Hamas, but every kid in Gaza is going to grow up hating Israel far more than they would have otherwise even. Whatever replaces Hamas will be much worse. The only way this ends up making Israel safer in the long run is if they kill everyone in Gaza.

 

[baarbogast]

 

[DaveXA]

People aren't leaving Gaza because there is no fuel of transportation.

People continued to flee after that IED exploded. That isn't the reason that people are not leaving Northern Gaza.

The hospital explosion wouldn't be an example of something that would keep people in Northern Gaza, if anything it would make them want to leave, regardless of who they believe was responsible.

Maybe there is no fuel or transportation because Hamas is using what little they have for themselves.

It doesn't matter to me. Israel is choosing to drop bombs that they know will kill civilians because they are angry. Israel is less safe today than it was on 10/8.

They might take out Hamas, but every kid in Gaza is going to grow up hating Israel far more than they would have otherwise even. Whatever replaces Hamas will be much worse. The only way this ends up making Israel safer in the long run is if they kill everyone in Gaza.

People aren't leaving Gaza because the border is closed. Has little to do with fuel. Many are close enough to walk across. Egypt simply doesn't care at this point.

 

[baarbogast]

 

[SamAndreas]

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

People aren't leaving Gaza because the border is closed. Has little to do with fuel. Many are close enough to walk across. Egypt simply doesn't care at this point.

I am talking about people not going from Northern Gaza to Southern Gaza.

Egypt isn't making a choice to drop bombs that they know will kill civilians.

I"m going to stop, because even though I don't really consider this back and forth political, i'm afraid the mods might have a different view. It's certainly not partisan.

I should have taken this to MAP from the start.

 

[SamAndreas]

People aren't leaving Gaza because there is no fuel of transportation.

People continued to flee after that IED exploded. That isn't the reason that people are not leaving Northern Gaza.

The hospital explosion wouldn't be an example of something that would keep people in Northern Gaza, if anything it would make them want to leave, regardless of who they believe was responsible.

Maybe there is no fuel or transportation because Hamas is using what little they have for themselves.

It doesn't matter to me. Israel is choosing to drop bombs that they know will kill civilians because they are angry. Israel is less safe today than it was on 10/8.

They might take out Hamas, but every kid in Gaza is going to grow up hating Israel far more than they would have otherwise even. Whatever replaces Hamas will be much worse. The only way this ends up making Israel safer in the long run is if they kill everyone in Gaza.

You keep wanting to talk about that which is at this point is moot.

Your end example of what would resolve this would not be a resolution of this.

 

[WhoDatPhan78]

You keep wanting to talk about that which is at this point is moot.

Your end example of what would resolve this would not be a resolution of this.

What is going on now will only create more extremists than they eliminate. Nothing short of killing everyone in Gaza is going to make this a better outcome for the long term safety of Israel.

We've been trying to bomb terrorism out of existence for decades, it never works. Israel is repeating the mistakes we made in the years following 2001. Mistakes that led to the existence of ISIS.

Ill bow out because i don't want to pollute the thread with my naive takes.

 

[SamAndreas]

What is going on now will only create more extremists than they eliminate. Nothing short of killing everyone in Gaza is going to make this a better outcome for the long term safety of Israel.

We've been trying to bomb terrorism out of existence for decades, it never works. Israel is repeating the mistakes we made in the years following 2001. Mistakes that led to the existence of ISIS.

Ill bow out because i don't want to pollute the thread with my naive takes.

I'm not going to argue with that. Of course that will be the most likely outcome of this.