Israel (now broader Mid East discussion) (3 Viewers)

[Heathen Saint]

I think it might be kinda hard to find an innocent person in either Israel or Gaza.

It’s actually not hard at all.

It relies on having a rational, ethical stance with regard to the protecting human life from unnecessary suffering amidst the understanding of conflict.

The violence has been going on for so long now. Innocent people probably left the area, or were killed 20 or 30 years ago.

Do you think Israelis are guilty by association based on the actions of the IDF in Gaza?

Say that my family and I lived in Rafah. And an IDF militant gleefully put a bullet in my toddler’s brain from his sniping post (verified by US based doctors many times over). Do I as a citizen of Gaza have a right to retaliate?

I think any human being, any parent, would.

Put another way - do you think Gaza has a right to defend itself?

 

[SamAndreas]

It’s actually not hard at all.

It relies on having a rational, ethical stance with regard to the protecting human life from unnecessary suffering amidst the understanding of conflict.



Do you think Israelis are guilty by association based on the actions of the IDF in Gaza?

Say that my family and I lived in Rafah. And an IDF militant gleefully put a bullet in my toddler’s brain from his sniping post (verified by US based doctors many times over). Do I as a citizen of Gaza have a right to retaliate?

I think any human being, any parent, would.

Put another way - do you think Gaza has a right to defend itself?

You appear to be taking my comments to an end conclusion where I didn't go.

I think that instead of counting all of the dead, and then attributing all of at least most of the deaths to having been innocents, which is what that 40,000 number is, I propose that we figure out that proportion of innocents vs. Hamas more accurately than it being all or none.

Suppose the real death toll was 40,000, say 20,000 of those were actual innocents, and 20,000 of them were Hamas terrorist hiding amoung the innocents when they were killed.

I think there is no such a thing as a right for an it, (a thing), to defend itself, That right to defend oneself extends to real persons. Real persons have a right to defend themselves.

When it comes to nation states, or terrorist organization, I don't see that as a right, rather I see those collective actions they take as inevitable, rather than it being a "right."

What I'm getting at here is somewhat like when the US Supreme Court ruled that corporations were persons insofar as the law. I disagree with that court ruling.

I don't think discussing this war from the avenue of personal rights is useful. I guess you can do it, but why???

 

[SystemShock]

Wow..

I have no words.

Everyone — Remember when I brought up the term “cognitive dissonance” a few pages back? It wasn’t for effect or drama.

Literally watching Israel kill children as Israel talks about killing children and “it’s all staged” because someone doesn’t want to believe it.

Remember stuff like this.

It’s how narratives are solidified to continue the genocide and the oppression of certain people.

@SamAndreas is right. You just cannot see the piece of propaganda for what it is.

Let's start simple:



The "little boy" on the ground who's allegedly being shot with bullets by a drone, does he look like "a little boy" to you? Especially in reference to the bystander in the foreground?

After you answer the question, I'll continue.

 

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

 

[SystemShock]

You keep saying, "look how bad the ugly Muslims are! Look how the Muslims have killed indiscriminately! Here...see my examples!"

That's a rationalization for one side when both sides are culpable. You said civilians are going to die in war. Yes, true. But I'd ask that you evaluate your own responses. Your response is always, "look at what the Muslims have done though". They're not alone in their disregard for civilians on the opposing side.

I don't need to evaluate my responses.

Muslims are not alone in their disregard for civilians on the opposing side, but Muslims also disregard civilians on their own side. They use their own civilians as human shields, and not because they are afraid of dying, but because they want their own civilians to die and making them martyrs, so they can use the images as propaganda to gather support, both among Muslims and nations around the world... they even kill their own to blame it on someone else.

And speaking of disregard for civilians' life on the opposing side, how do you expect Jews, a people who have been persecuted, executed, and almost systematically exterminated by nations and kingdoms around the world for centuries, to have any regard for outsiders who target them?

Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, everyone who participated in the Oct 7th attack very well knew what the response of the Israelis was going to be, yet, they went ahead and did it, because they wanted that response.

 

[livefromDC]

I don't need to evaluate my responses.

Muslims are not alone in their disregard for civilians on the opposing side, but Muslims also disregard civilians on their own side. They use their own civilians as human shields, and not because they are afraid of dying, but because they want their own civilians to die and making them martyrs, so they can use the images as propaganda to gather support, both among Muslims and nations around the world... they even kill their own to blame it on someone else.

And speaking of disregard for civilians' life on the opposing side, how do you expect Jews, a people who have been persecuted, executed, and almost systematically exterminated by nations and kingdoms around the world for centuries, to have any regard for outsiders who target them?

Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran, everyone who participated in the Oct 7th attack very well knew what the response of the Israelis was going to be, yet, they went ahead and did it, because they wanted that response.

Not even trying to make the distinction between Muslims and Hamas/Hezbollah anymore. Not trying to hide it. Good for you.

 

[SamAndreas]

That's been picked up by a few smaller papers here and there, but major papers haven't touched that story. That usually means a story is not making it as an entirely truthful story.

When I sought for the primary source I didn't find a definitive answer, but I did find indications that it came from David Milstein the fellow who was our ambassador to Israel under Trump.

David retweeted the same as what is posted here, and when I looked at his back trail I found that he retweets that same open source intel twitter account a lot. I saw that, and not only that from his other postings I got a vibe that he may run that open source intel site.

 

[baarbogast]

 

[SystemShock]

Not even trying to make the distinction between Muslims and Hamas/Hezbollah anymore. Not trying to hide it. Good for you.

I haven't seen distinctions made for the Jews or Israel... and it's not just Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS, Al-Qaeda... it's Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Iran, Turkey even... and you know this... you've seen the news about the massacres, the gassings, the oppression, the fights between Muslim groups... is there a particular name or term you'd like me to use? Or do you want me to name each group every time?

And Muslims in general... have you read any of my comments about the Catholic church and/or Christianity? They get more colorful when I speak about Islam, the so-called religion of peace.

But in any case, fact is, a lot of the civilian deaths you see in exTwitter, IG FB, etc., Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS, Iran, Lebanon, they are as guilty of those deaths as anyone else.

Edit: on second though, removing question...not need to ask or answer such question. This has gone a bit too long... but let me say this:

I don't want civilians dying in wars. I don't want children dying in wars. I don't wish for wars.

What drives my opinions about this conflict, is a couple of things:

People falling for the propaganda of organizations like Hamas, like Hezbollah, like ISIS... all those dead bodies you see, Hamas, Hezbollah, ISIS, etc. they want you to see those bodies, they planned on it. And, many are staged (like the post of the "little boy" being shot down by a drone a couple pages ago). And I don't doubt many are of their own doing.

It's hard to tell who is Hamas/Hezbollah/etc and who isn't. I don't know who's counting the bodies either. We know that Hamas/Hezbollah/etc use women children to carry ammunitions and bombs.

And when you see all of those students in universities wearing shemaghs, waving Palestinian fags and anti-Israel signs, that's exactly what they want.

Is the Israeli response too heavy handed? In a vacuum, sure. But knowing the history? To me, that's a different situation.

Call me what you will, I am not a Zionist, I don't care if Israel exists or not since I don't believe in prophesies... I just don't care to be around people who still live in the Dark Ages.

 

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

 

[SamAndreas]

Out of curiosity... when I say "Muslim", what comes to your mind?

You're a wee bit notorious around here.

What comes to my mind is that you or your ancestors may have come from Wales region of Britain.

You're always complaining.