Israel (now broader Mid East discussion) (2 Viewers)

[Heathen Saint]

Not gonna say there aren't injustices happening, but I don't believe they're shooting children in the head for sport. Not at all. And considering the questionable sources out there, including doctors, I'm very wary of those claims. And fwiw, I'm wary of Isaraeli claims as well. Both are going to slant their claims to their worldview.

It's unfortunate, but there aren't any unbiased witnesses in this conflict.

You don't have to believe anything that you don't want to believe, Dave.

I truly don't mean to be a jerk -- but I've heard this narrative of "well I just don't believe that" more than once with regard to Israel's actions. It comes across to me more as wishful thinking than a real openness to review the evidence before us.

This isn't about what someone wishes or does not wish to be true. It's about what the hard data points to.

The vast majority of those slaughtered in Gaza have been women and children, per the United Nations: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn5wel11pgdo

With too many pictures of mutilated children, torn to pieces, intestines hanging out, heads smashed, limbs missing from infants and babies -- to count - can we really, truly, continue to say things like this?

Israel kills kids every day with missile strikes, and we're actually debating if Israel would shoot kids in the head?? How much evidence is enough evidence? We have YEARS of evidence already and we are still questioning whether this is intentional?

I question your vetting of sources if you seriously "don't believe" that Israel doing something like this. They've been doing it for years, actually. You should read about it. This is one article from 2022, but there is one for just about every year as well:
https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/thirteen-palestinian-children-killed-west-bank-january-2022




It's no personal affront - but a challenge to you. I challenge you to consider that what you think you know about Israel's government and the IDF. These are deeply evil actions that will be remembered for a long time to come.


Here is more:

United States Surgeon Mark Perlmutter volunteered in Khan Younis March - April 2024. He claimed that Israeli snipers were deliberately shooting children in Gaza, citing his observation of 2 children who were shot twice.


Another surgeon who volunteered at a hospital in Khan Younis - Dr. Feroze Sidhwa, echoing the same experiences -- "Nearly every day I was there (Gaza), I saw a new young child who had been shot in the head or chest, virtually all of whom went on to die, thirteen in total":


UK Surgeon Professor Nizam Mamode provided testimony to the UK Parliament - describing how he worked at Nasser hospital in late 2024, where he treated children who reported being shot by quadcopter drones while already injured on the ground. He stated that these attacks appeared from all evidence to be deliberate.


And of course there are the personal accounts from the people of Gaza, which many here continue to invalidate:


And how about when Israel just flat out admits it kills kids?
In one incident, a soldier recounted shooting dead a 16-year-old in a hail of bullets, "shooting and laughing".

"That evening, our battalion commander congratulated us for killing a terrorist, saying he hoped we'd kill 10 more tomorrow," the soldier told Haaretz.

"When someone pointed out he was unarmed and looked like a civilian, everyone shouted him down. The commander said: 'Anyone crossing the line is a terrorist, no exceptions, no civilians. Everyone's a terrorist.'"


Other testimony revealed the ideological zeal expressed by some commanders for their actions in Gaza.

One soldier recalled Brigadier General Yehuda Vach, head of Division 252, telling his subordinates that "there are no innocents in Gaza".

"It wasn't just opinion - it became operational doctrine: everyone's a terrorist," said the soldier, adding that Vach also said that "in the Middle East, victory comes through conquering territory. We must keep conquering until we win".
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/6079/2022/en/

Article about IDF commander grabbing a young Palestinian child in the street and breaking their arm, kicking him and saying “These kids need to be killed from the day they are born”

‘These kids need to be killed’: Israel ‘losing its humanity’ in Gaza

Israeli soldiers are increasingly engaging in acts of brutality and war crimes in Gaza, with the appearance of more “callous” and “ideologically violent” troops, according to a detailed analysis published...

www.middleeastmonitor.com

How about the evidence and videos we have of the IDF shooting children, even? I mean this is just a few of a whole hell of a lot out there:

 

[DaveXA]

You don't have to believe anything that you don't want to believe, Dave.

I'll believe the truth, wherever I find it.

I truly don't mean to be a jerk -- but I've heard this narrative of "well I just don't believe that" more than once with regard to Israel's actions. It comes across to me more as wishful thinking than a real openness to review the evidence before us.

You claimed they're shooting kids for sport. Kids undoubtedly are being injured or killed in this conflict. It's terrible that it's happening, and I won't justify it, but if they're in a war zone and in a dangerous area, the kids shouldn't be out and about. They should have long been evacuated months ago.

I've already clearly stated Israel overstepped by invading and destroying Gaza, that said, Hamas is accountable for provoking them.

Most examples of kids being shot and injured/killed are young teens. Some of these kids have no doubt picked up guns and joined the fight. That makes things a lot more difficult.

And through all of this, Hamas has not agreed to return the remaining hostages, and i don't think we see any sort of end until the hostages are returned and a cease-fite is agreed to. Regardless who is to blame for the failed peace negotiations, nothing happens until the parties come to an agreement. Until then, we'll continue to witness people suffering.

This isn't about what someone wishes or does not wish to be true. It's about what the hard data points to.

Sure. And is that data reliable?

The vast majority of those slaughtered in Gaza have been women and children, per the United Nations: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn5wel11pgdo

Sorry, but I don't trust numbers from the UN. They've not been neutral in this conflict, at all. And I believe the numbers are substantially inflated to make it look worse than it actually is. Yes, there's no doubt that too many innocent people are suffering, but this conflict is a two way street and the numbers will be verified after this conflict and when neutral observers can come in and accurately assess the total damages, we'll get a more accurate picture of what's been happening.

With too many pictures of mutilated children, torn to pieces, intestines hanging out, heads smashed, limbs missing from infants and babies -- to count - can we really, truly, continue to say things like this?

Unfortunately, yes, we can say things like this if they're true. I hate seeing people suffer like this, but unfortunately it's what war looks like.

Israel kills kids every day with missile strikes, and we're actually debating if Israel would shoot kids in the head??

If kids are in harm's way, they're likely to get shot. As for the missle strikes, i don't support shooting them in civilian areas, but considering that Hamas has been lobbing their own missles and embedding themselves in civilian structures, the outcome is what it is.

How much evidence is enough evidence? We have YEARS of evidence already and we are still questioning whether this is intentional?

Not questioning whether its intentional. I'm questioning the claim that they're killing kids and targeting them intentionally. Young teens can easily be mistaken for a young adult.

I question your vetting of sources if you seriously "don't believe" that Israel doing something like this. They've been doing it for years, actually. You should read about it. This is one article from 2022, but there is one for just about every year as well:
https://www.unicef.org/press-releases/thirteen-palestinian-children-killed-west-bank-january-2022




It's no personal affront - but a challenge to you. I challenge you to consider that what you think you know about Israel's government and the IDF. These are deeply evil actions that will be remembered for a long time to come.

You can continue challenging me, and I'll read and consider valid sources. But I'm not going to trust biased sources.

And ultimately, history will judge Israel's actions. When the conflict concludes, a lot of people are going to try and rewrite what happened, both for and against both sides.

Here is more:

United States Surgeon Mark Perlmutter volunteered in Khan Younis March - April 2024. He claimed that Israeli snipers were deliberately shooting children in Gaza, citing his observation of 2 children who were shot twice.

How does he know who shot them? How does he know what their motives were? Whether they were just or not? Doctors can be quite biased as well.

Another surgeon who volunteered at a hospital in Khan Younis - Dr. Feroze Sidhwa, echoing the same experiences -- "Nearly every day I was there (Gaza), I saw a new young child who had been shot in the head or chest, virtually all of whom went on to die, thirteen in total":


UK Surgeon Professor Nizam Mamode provided testimony to the UK Parliament - describing how he worked at Nasser hospital in late 2024, where he treated children who reported being shot by quadcopter drones while already injured on the ground. He stated that these attacks appeared from all evidence to be deliberate.


And of course there are the personal accounts from the people of Gaza, which many here continue to invalidate:


And how about when Israel just flat out admits it kills kids?
In one incident, a soldier recounted shooting dead a 16-year-old in a hail of bullets, "shooting and laughing".

"That evening, our battalion commander congratulated us for killing a terrorist, saying he hoped we'd kill 10 more tomorrow," the soldier told Haaretz.

"When someone pointed out he was unarmed and looked like a civilian, everyone shouted him down. The commander said: 'Anyone crossing the line is a terrorist, no exceptions, no civilians. Everyone's a terrorist.'"


Other testimony revealed the ideological zeal expressed by some commanders for their actions in Gaza.

One soldier recalled Brigadier General Yehuda Vach, head of Division 252, telling his subordinates that "there are no innocents in Gaza".

"It wasn't just opinion - it became operational doctrine: everyone's a terrorist," said the soldier, adding that Vach also said that "in the Middle East, victory comes through conquering territory. We must keep conquering until we win".
https://www.amnesty.org/en/documents/mde15/6079/2022/en/

That's not surprising at all. I mean, they're all calling rhe other side terrorists.

 

[Heathen Saint]

 

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

 

[Heathen Saint]

You claimed they're shooting kids for sport. Kids undoubtedly are being injured or killed in this conflict. It's terrible that it's happening, and I won't justify it, but if they're in a war zone and in a dangerous area, the kids shouldn't be out and about. They should have long been evacuated months ago.

Did you read any of the articles or interviews that I posted, several of which mention evidence of young children being shot in the chest or head?

Did you watch any of the videos I posted of IDF soldiers doing this? How about the ones of the IDF soldiers bragging about killing children?

Evidence abounds. You can claim to hold to truth wherever you find it - but I question your intentions on what you decide to look at if you don't see a connection between the claim and evidence presented.

I can keep posting articles corroborating my claim. As many as it takes:

Israeli soldiers ‘shoot boy for fun’

A group of Israeli soldiers serving in the Gaza Strip have reportedly admitted killing a 15-year-old Palestinian in Khan Yunus for sport.

www.aljazeera.com

I've already clearly stated Israel overstepped by invading and destroying Gaza, that said, Hamas is accountable for provoking them.

We're past that. Israel didn't just 'overstep'. They have committed genocide on the people of Gaza. This is long past any 'Israel vs Hamas' conflict.

It's sad to see that so many still see it that way despite what data has been presented over and over since October of 2023.

It's evident that many do not understand the history of Gaza, the Palestinian people, or why it matters to still be 'questioning' why the IDF would commit such atrocities.

As I've said -- they (Israel) have been treating Palestinians horribly for decades. They already have a history of shooting kids, of throwing people off the street into prison, of taking their land and homes without warning. So this sudden surprise and denial narrative of how the IDF is acting comes across more as ignorance than it does a willingness to openly understand what's happening.

Most examples of kids being shot and injured/killed are young teens. Some of these kids have no doubt picked up guns and joined the fight. That makes things a lot more difficult.

Could you share your data behind that claim?

Because my original claim was that the IDF are purposefully shooting children for sport. They have in the past, they have since October of 2023, and they probably will continue to do so as they have no one to truly stop them. You don't shoot a child in the head that is clearly unarmed for any other reason.

How many pieces of evidence would be enough for you to realize that this is a true statement? Here's an example -- before October 2023 (and there are many others , just 'ask'):

Palestinian toddler shot by Israeli soldiers dies

The two-year-old is the youngest Palestinian killed in the conflict in the West Bank this year.

www.bbc.com

Here is an open letter to President Biden some time ago from 99 American medical professionals - from former US vets to reservists, from all over the United States. I would encourage you to read it and tell me if you think any of this is being made up or comes off as a 'biased' source for some unknown purpose:

USA Letter | October 2 — Gaza Healthcare Letters

www.gazahealthcareletters.org

We urge you to realize that epidemics are raging in Gaza. Israel’s continued, repeated displacement of the malnourished and sick population of Gaza, half of whom are children, to areas without running water or even toilets available is absolutely shocking. It was and remains guaranteed to result in widespread death from viral and bacterial diarrheal diseases and pneumonias, particularly in children under the age of five. Indeed, even the dreaded polio virus has reemerged in Gaza due to a combination of systematic destruction of the sanitation infrastructure, widespread malnutrition weakening immune systems, and young children having missed routine vaccinations for nearly an entire year. We worry that unknown thousands have already died from the lethal combination of malnutrition and disease, and that tens of thousands more will die in the coming months, especially with the onset of the winter rains in Gaza. Most of them will be young children.

Gaza was the first time I held a baby’s brains in my hand. The first of many.
Dr. Mark Perlmutter, orthopedic and hand surgeon

Children are universally considered innocents in armed conflict. However, every single signatory to this letter saw children in Gaza who suffered violence that must have been deliberately directed at them. Specifically, every one of us who worked in an emergency, intensive care, or surgical setting treated pre-teen children who were shot in the head or chest on a regular or even a daily basis. It is impossible that such widespread shooting of young children throughout Gaza, sustained over the course of an entire year is accidental or unknown to the highest Israeli civilian and military authorities.

And through all of this, Hamas has not agreed to return the remaining hostages, and i don't think we see any sort of end until the hostages are returned and a cease-fite is agreed to. Regardless who is to blame for the failed peace negotiations, nothing happens until the parties come to an agreement. Until then, we'll continue to witness people suffering.

Once again, we're so far past this narrative of "Israel vs Hamas", "Return the hostages", and other statements used to try to make an illegal land grab and genocide into something of a 'war'.

It's an attempt by Israel, who regularly spread propaganda -- much of it through western media, to mask war crimes as 'proportioned response, retaliation for terrorism, protecting democracy' etc.

And they're doing this with the goal of ethnic cleansing in Gaza, taking it over militarily, and annexing it.

Remember when we were all debating over whether that was happening or not - many claiming that wasn't what Israel actually wanted to do? 'Get rid of Hamas and return land back to the people of Gaza'?

How's that forecast panning out?

Sorry, but I don't trust numbers from the UN. They've not been neutral in this conflict, at all. And I believe the numbers are substantially inflated to make it look worse than it actually is. Yes, there's no doubt that too many innocent people are suffering, but this conflict is a two way street and the numbers will be verified after this conflict and when neutral observers can come in and accurately assess the total damages, we'll get a more accurate picture of what's been happening.

That's interesting. I assume then, by your own logic, do you also not trust their numbers on the Ukraine conflict?

Conflict-related civilian casualties in Ukraine

December 2021

ukraine.un.org

If you want to claim that the United Nations is inflating numbers - then I'd like for you to explain why.

And more specifically -- why inflating numbers would serve any substantial purpose and to whom.

Finally, could you list other organizations that have been around for decades that the US itself has cited numbers from -- that agrees with the UN's assessment in Gaza, that you do not trust?

Unfortunately, yes, we can say things like this if they're true. I hate seeing people suffer like this, but unfortunately it's what war looks like.

This isn't a war.

If kids are in harm's way, they're likely to get shot. As for the missle strikes, i don't support shooting them in civilian areas, but considering that Hamas has been lobbing their own missles and embedding themselves in civilian structures, the outcome is what it is.

This isn't what the situation is. It isn't that Israel is courageously going after all of these Hamas members and unfortunately children are getting the way each time.

How many photos or videos of leveled homes filled with women and children would be sufficient to convince you that Israel is purposefully targeting civilians?

If they could always claim 'Hamas' in every building they destroyed, for every child they slaughtered, would you believe it justifiable or thats just 'what war looks like' in every case?

Not questioning whether its intentional. I'm questioning the claim that they're killing kids and targeting them intentionally. Young teens can easily be mistaken for a young adult.

Once more - you did actually watch the video of the IDF soldier bragging about slitting a child's throat, didn't you?
And the account of the IDF soldier purposefully breaking a young child's arm who was playing in the street?

And the videos showing IDF soldiers shooting children?

Not meaning to belabor the point - but I truly feel that if you took in any of the few examples I posted, and maybe did a little bit of research into other examples - and historical examples, you wouldn't ask a question like:
"Im questioning the claim that they're killing kids / targeting intentionally"

You'd know that they not only have been shown to do it - but based on the fact that the majority of structures leveled in Gaza are residential and the majority of those living in these structures are women and young children -- it wouldn't be difficult to deduce that this is an intentional initiative.

TL; DR: You don't try to weed out terrorists by destroying cities full of civilians if you wish to weed out the terrorists and protect other innocent human life. And the latter is what Israel has done and continues to do as we speak.

You can continue challenging me, and I'll read and consider valid sources. But I'm not going to trust biased sources.

It's challenging your narrative, not meant to be in any way personal.

That being said - I think we both know that there isn't any source free of bias.

Who do you consider a valid source in this event?

How does he know who shot them? How does he know what their motives were? Whether they were just or not? Doctors can be quite biased as well.

The IDF was the largest military presence in the area during that time, claiming to be conducting an operation:

Institute for the Study of War

The Israel Defense Forces engaged Palestinian militias north of Gaza City. Local Palestinian sources reported that Israeli armor entered eastern Beit Hanoun on March 23. The IDF acknowledged on March 24 that its forces are operating in Beit Hanoun,

understandingwar.org

An idea of what else was going on during that time -- (March / April 2024 in Khan Younis):

US speaks out about "mass grave" found in Gaza

State Department spokesperson Matthew Miller said the U.S. was "inquiring" with Israel over reports of a mass grave in Khan Yunis.

www.newsweek.com

Gaza's Civil Defense agency said on Monday that its health workers had found the bodies of people killed and buried by Israeli forces at a hospital inside the Nasser Medical Complex in Khan Yunis, in the south of the Palestinian territory.

Col. Yamen Abu Suleiman, director of Civil Defense in Khan Younis, told CNN 35 bodies had been discovered on Tuesday, bringing the total to 310.

Suleiman alleged that some of the bodies had been found with hands and feet tied, "and there were signs of field executions," adding that "we do not know if they were buried alive or executed."

Be advised that there are photos and videos of Israel taking people off the street blindfolded, hands and feet tied, out into the fields and using bulldozers to cover up holes. And countless accounts of Palestinian people claiming they took the men and young boys out to never return.

Who else would've shot children? Hamas?

Once more, why would people in Gaza make this up and for what purpose?

And what evidence would it take for you to believe that what's happening in Gaza is in fact how it appears on paper - and in photos, and in videos, and AS the actual IDF is bragging about?

 

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

I can’t believe many westerners support this.

 

[baarbogast]

 

[Heathen Saint]

 

[Heathen Saint]

Israel’s victims are far and away the children

 

[baarbogast]

 

[Heathen Saint]

I guess we’ll add the Lancet to the list of “fake news” too…

 

[Heathen Saint]

 

[baarbogast]