Israel (now broader Mid East discussion) (3 Viewers)

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

I’m happy for them, but I feel a deal with the devil was made.

 

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

Documented by a pro-Palestinian network.

 

[Det. Brees]

Documented by a pro-Palestinian network.

yeah and too many Americans defend these animals.

 

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

 

[Heathen Saint]

im only going to chime in here because you, and others, seem to have this misconception of what "WAR" is.

You're free to make those claims, but you'll have to substantiate them. It's always been more nuanced than that.

War, by its very nature, is to either eradicate the opposition, or inflict enough death and destruction make them bend the knee. Thats it. Thats ALL IT EVER WAS going back to the Mongols, the Roman Empire, British Empire etc etc.

Thats IT. If the enemy continues to churn out warriors, you keep going until they cant. Its barbaric. Its disgusting. But its "War".

I've consistently told many here, with much evidence, that this isn't a "war" at least by an internationally understood definition.

I don't wish to have a conversation about what subjectively people "feel" or "anecdotally know" war to be.

That's pointless, man. It's absolutely pointless.

Because in the end, everyone can have their own experience of what they think war is - and if the argument is over "is this or is this not a war" and more importantly --- even if we go with a big stretch and GIVE YOU (for the purpose of a hypothetical) that it is a war, does this make the purposeful slaughter, displacement, starvation etc. of civilians in large number any less a war crime?

As always, the data tells the story. Let's break down some statistics once more, since October 7th, 2023 --- Israel vs Hamas/Palestine:

Civilian Fatalities from Militant groups	Infrastructure destruction	Displacement	Housing damage / destruction	Food insecurity	Water insecurity
1,200 Israelis killed	33 attacks on facilities in Israel	100,000 Israelis displaced	None	None	None
41,000+ (with 20,000+ estimated to still be under rubble) Palestinians killed	144,000-175,000 buildings damaged destroyed (50-61% of all buildings in Gaza)	1,900,000 (85% of population) Palestinians displaced	436,000 damaged or destroyed (92% of all housing)	Entire population	Less than 5% of water system operational

We're not talking about the Mongolian empire or Rome.

We're talking about what is and what is not war. That was your initial "call out", so let's stay on it.

If you want to argue what war is and isn't, we need to in the least operate by and agree upon an underlying standard. Can we do that?

How about we start with the Geneva Conventions of 1949, in which the United States held a significant role and still participates within today - which establish humanitarian protections during armed conflicts?

We can immediately refer to the ICJ's measures ordering Israel to stop multiple violations of these conventions. Here is an article that lays out Israel's violations. To list the major ones:

1. Deliberate targeting of civilians:
Slaughtered at least 41,000 Palestinians, an estimated 80% civilians. Conducted airstrikes on densely populated areas - using 2,000 pound 'dumb bombs'. Attacked civilians in designated evacuation routes and safe zones.
Geneva Convention articles violated: 51(2), 51(4), 147
2. Widespread destruction of civilian infrastructure:
Destroyed up to 61% of all buildings in Gaza, 65,000 homes, 93% of schools and universities, destroyed orchards and crops, deliberately destroyed water and sanitation infrastructure
Geneva Convention articles violated: 53, 54, 56
3. Collective punishment: Starvation and cutting off water, electricity, fuel
Cut off food, water, electricity and fuel supplies, deliberately blocked humanitarian aid, used starvation as a weapon of war.
Geneva Convention articles violated: 33, 75(2)
4. Forced Displacement
Forcibly displaced 1.9 M people (85% of population), Issued evacuation orders w/o safe passage or a final safe destination, made large swatchs of Gaza uninhabitable, with disease rampant and animals eating bodies on the streets, systematically destroyed civilian infrastructure preventing return of families to their homes
Geneva Convention articles violated: 17, 49
5. Attacks on Medical facilities
Directly attacked marked ambulances and targeted doctors and other providers, destroyed 464 healthcare facilities, slaughtered 727 healthcare workers, destroyed hospitals with babies in the NICU, disabled patients, the elderly
Geneva Convention articles violated: 12, 15, 18, 19
6. Use of prohibited weapons
Used white phosphorous in densely populated civilian areas causing severe burns, employed unguided munitions in civilian areas
Geneva Convention articles violated: Protocol III


So overall Israel has violated around 15 articles or provisions of the Geneva Conventions.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Heathen Saint]

The amount of right wing Mossad propaganda posted so very proudly here that goes largely unquestioned by the I stand with Israel above all (even my own country) types is pretty sickening.

Now don't get me wrong - it's definitely not at all surprising. So many United States citizens have been programmed to robotically defend Israel at all costs, without a single understanding of how beholden their own government is to this foreign entity. Without any understanding of why that is detrimental to their own nation. Without any understanding of how the "Hasbara" seeps into aspects of their everyday lives. Social media is the largest channel of this propaganda. Case in point with you just posting whatever random, unverifiable sheete you think will stick because a lot of the folks here will agree with you anyway.

The amount of both conservative and liberal Americans I've heard angrily defending Israel and spouting this "war is hard" and "too bad, they shouldn't have aligned with Hamas" line whenever Israel slaughters 18,000 Palestinian children but were absolutely livid with October 7th and willingly spread lies about beheaded babies (even our own President did it) tells me all that I need to know.

So often, the troll-level response I get when pointing out these clear moral discrepancies amounts to: "Well uhh..war is hard..and you must not understand it", "FIFO", and other responses to avoid having to talk in any depth about the issue. It'd be nice if we could move past that. Some have, and for those folks I am appreciative even though we may disagree...but it's frustrating to get into those prior type of discussions where there is clearly no fruitful way forward, and the attempt seems to be for likes and attention more than for an actual in-depth discussion and willingness to find truth.

I'm so thankful for the groups of Israelis and Jews who proudly and passionately speak out against this atrocity. Who speak out against their murderous thug government.

I'm so thankful for countries outside of the US where more of the population have some damned common sense -- that don't think in this juvenile "survival of the fittest" and "military supremacy" mindset when it comes to their morality and the preservation of a child's life.

And of course I'm thankful for all of my fellow citizens here in America speaking out every day against the continued attacks on the innocent and the apathy of the masses toward the suffering of "the wrong kinds of kids".

But you know what?

Even if NOT ONE Israeli spoke out against the genocide of Palestinian people in Gaza...hell, even if they ALL spoke out in SUPPORT of it...NO ONE deserves to die. Not one Isreali child deserves death for the actions of their government or militia. Not one mother deserves to be slaughtered for her husband's actions. Not one teenager deserves to be shot in the head because he showed interest in Hamas or the IDF but never joined their ranks.

We've lost a lot of our decency as a nation willingly spreading propaganda we know is hurting innocent people. It seems par for the course lately.

 

[Heathen Saint]

Also @Merl , I appreciate your continued support of my posts, baby.


I'll be here for you if you want to ever type anything out

 

[baarbogast]

 

[efil4stnias]

You're free to make those claims, but you'll have to substantiate them. It's always been more nuanced than that.



I've consistently told many here, with much evidence, that this isn't a "war" at least by an internationally understood definition.

I don't wish to have a conversation about what subjectively people "feel" or "anecdotally know" war to be.

That's pointless, man. It's absolutely pointless.

Because in the end, everyone can have their own experience of what they think war is - and if the argument is over "is this or is this not a war" and more importantly --- even if we go with a big stretch and GIVE YOU (for the purpose of a hypothetical) that it is a war, does this make the purposeful slaughter, displacement, starvation etc. of civilians in large number any less a war crime?

As always, the data tells the story. Let's break down some statistics once more, since October 7th, 2023 --- Israel vs Hamas/Palestine:

Civilian Fatalities from Militant groups	Infrastructure destruction	Displacement	Housing damage / destruction	Food insecurity	Water insecurity
1,200 Israelis killed	33 attacks on facilities in Israel	100,000 Israelis displaced	None	None	None
41,000+ (with 20,000+ estimated to still be under rubble) Palestinians killed	144,000-175,000 buildings damaged destroyed (50-61% of all buildings in Gaza)	1,900,000 (85% of population) Palestinians displaced	436,000 damaged or destroyed (92% of all housing)	Entire population	Less than 5% of water system operational

We're not talking about the Mongolian empire or Rome.

We're talking about what is and what is not war. That was your initial "call out", so let's stay on it.

If you want to argue what war is and isn't, we need to in the least operate by and agree upon an underlying standard. Can we do that?

How about we start with the Geneva Conventions of 1949, in which the United States held a significant role and still participates within today - which establish humanitarian protections during armed conflicts?

We can immediately refer to the ICJ's measures ordering Israel to stop multiple violations of these conventions. Here is an article that lays out Israel's violations. To list the major ones:

1. Deliberate targeting of civilians:
Slaughtered at least 41,000 Palestinians, an estimated 80% civilians. Conducted airstrikes on densely populated areas - using 2,000 pound 'dumb bombs'. Attacked civilians in designated evacuation routes and safe zones.
Geneva Convention articles violated: 51(2), 51(4), 147
2. Widespread destruction of civilian infrastructure:
Destroyed up to 61% of all buildings in Gaza, 65,000 homes, 93% of schools and universities, destroyed orchards and crops, deliberately destroyed water and sanitation infrastructure
Geneva Convention articles violated: 53, 54, 56
3. Collective punishment: Starvation and cutting off water, electricity, fuel
Cut off food, water, electricity and fuel supplies, deliberately blocked humanitarian aid, used starvation as a weapon of war.
Geneva Convention articles violated: 33, 75(2)
4. Forced Displacement
Forcibly displaced 1.9 M people (85% of population), Issued evacuation orders w/o safe passage or a final safe destination, made large swatchs of Gaza uninhabitable, with disease rampant and animals eating bodies on the streets, systematically destroyed civilian infrastructure preventing return of families to their homes
Geneva Convention articles violated: 17, 49
5. Attacks on Medical facilities
Directly attacked marked ambulances and targeted doctors and other providers, destroyed 464 healthcare facilities, slaughtered 727 healthcare workers, destroyed hospitals with babies in the NICU, disabled patients, the elderly
Geneva Convention articles violated: 12, 15, 18, 19
6. Use of prohibited weapons
Used white phosphorous in densely populated civilian areas causing severe burns, employed unguided munitions in civilian areas
Geneva Convention articles violated: Protocol III


So overall Israel has violated around 15 articles or provisions of the Geneva Conventions.

What are your thoughts?

Palestine is a 2014 signatory to the Geneva Conventions.

So go ahead and list the violations committed on Oct 7.

My thoughts are you look at this from a viewpoint of have not v have ( in military sense of ability and weaponry ). Hamas enjoyed majority support in Palestine, so they effectively were "Palestine". And yet began the atrocities and violations on Oct 7.
Agaisnt an adversary that they know has superior weaponry and technology.

You see a hornets nest, full of hornets that can sting you repeatedly, to the point it kills you, you think the hornets give a damn about "proportinate resposne" if you smack their nest? More importantly, do you still smack the nest?
They aren't going to send one hornet to sting you and make you leave. The whole nest is coming and they are making sure you never do it again. If you die from the stings, that too is a disproportionate response, but you should have known that was going to be the response. (En masse attack)

Do I agree with the disproportionate response by Israel with respect to Oct 7? No.
Do I understand the underlying primeval instinct behind the response? Yes.

If you are arguing the US should do more to reign in Israel with respect to the Geneva Convention, I would counter with the fact that Israel doesn't give 2 shirts about the Conventions when Hamas ( and Hezbollah, Iran and others ) openly call for extermination of Jews for decades. Openly. Publicly.

So this is a war. And this war, to Israel, dredged up a basic instinct of survival.

And you are seeing the result.

you admittedly do not wish to have a conversation about "what people feel" yet that is exactly the conversation to have if you want to understand exactly what is happening and why.

And the international definition of war is exactly described by this conflict.

Look it up.

 

[baarbogast]

 

[jboss]

BREAKING NEWS: Western government agencies in partnership with media outlets hold journalists accountable for reporting what's actually, truly going on