Israel (now broader Mid East discussion) (9 Viewers)

[Heathen Saint]

Every one of those in our government enabling this genocide in Gaza are being called out where they stand by US veterans, journalists, healthcare workers, and the working people of this great nation.

We do NOT want our tax dollars being used to slaughter children as they have been for almost a year and a half without reprieve.

 

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

Why keep funding the terrorists?

 

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

 

[baarbogast]

 

[KiwiSaint]

I know that this thread has devolved into to a Baarbogast (pro-Israeli) v. Heathen Saint (pro-Palestinian) tweeting contest. Both sides tweets covered in propaganda. I’ve got just a few observations:

Hamas and Hezbollah (along with their sponsor, Iran) have no credible means of defeating Israel militarily and achieving their goal of Israeli extinction. The only way for them to achieve this goal is to isolate Israel from its sponsor, the United States and Western European allies.

Over the past few decades, Hamas has turned Gaza into an armed fortress. Their terror infrastructure is embedded in schools, hospitals, mosques, businesses, private homes, etc. The Palestinian people have allowed this to happen, either voluntarily or by coercion. There were no demonstrations against or condemnation of Hamas by the Palestinian people prior to 7 October.

The population of Gaza has been radicalized against Israel for decades and it is well-documented that children are taught at a very young age to hate Israel, Jewish people, and their supporters.

Knowing that the world is watching, what benefit does Israel gain from indiscriminately destroying Gaza and killing Palestinian children? On the flip side, what benefit does Hamas gain? Seems clear to me that if the only way to defeat Israel and for Hamas to achieve their aims is to drive a wedge between Israel and its Allies, illustrating the alleged genocide by Israel would be the way to go.

Is it not possible (more than likely, even) that many of these radicalized children have been martyred by Hamas? Older children as actual combatants and younger children put into harms way? It’s obvious by the way Hamas embedded itself throughout Gaza that they care not for the general population, so why would we think they wouldn’t use the death of children to further their goals.

Again, if the only way for Israel to lose this conflict is by losing its Allies and their financial and military support, why would the Israeli government tolerate indiscriminate killing of Palestinians and especially the children? I’m sure their have been unfortunate killings by some rogue members of the IDF…this happens in war and no nation can deny this has not happened before; however, it is in no way beneficial to Israel for this to happen. It is beneficial to Hamas for this to happen.

Is it not curious why Egypt, Jordan, or other Islamic countries won’t accept Palestinian refugees? They know that Hamas is embedded in this population and that the majority of the population is pro-Hamas and radicalized. They don’t want these people in their countries.

This appears to be a classic FAFO situation. The Palestinians in Gaza were supportive of Hamas, parents of Palestinian children allowed them to be radicalized in schools, and Palestinians celebrated the 7th of October attacks (and 9/11 as I clearly remember). I don’t know how we are now supposed to blame Israel for what is happening to them? It appears to be self-inflicted!

 

[UncleTrvlingJim]

I know that this thread has devolved into to a Baarbogast (pro-Israeli) v. Heathen Saint (pro-Palestinian) tweeting contest. Both sides tweets covered in propaganda. I’ve got just a few observations:

Hamas and Hezbollah (along with their sponsor, Iran) have no credible means of defeating Israel militarily and achieving their goal of Israeli extinction. The only way for them to achieve this goal is to isolate Israel from its sponsor, the United States and Western European allies.

Over the past few decades, Hamas has turned Gaza into an armed fortress. Their terror infrastructure is embedded in schools, hospitals, mosques, businesses, private homes, etc. The Palestinian people have allowed this to happen, either voluntarily or by coercion. There were no demonstrations against or condemnation of Hamas by the Palestinian people prior to 7 October.

The population of Gaza has been radicalized against Israel for decades and it is well-documented that children are taught at a very young age to hate Israel, Jewish people, and their supporters.

Knowing that the world is watching, what benefit does Israel gain from indiscriminately destroying Gaza and killing Palestinian children? On the flip side, what benefit does Hamas gain? Seems clear to me that if the only way to defeat Israel and for Hamas to achieve their aims is to drive a wedge between Israel and its Allies, illustrating the alleged genocide by Israel would be the way to go.

Is it not possible (more than likely, even) that many of these radicalized children have been martyred by Hamas? Older children as actual combatants and younger children put into harms way? It’s obvious by the way Hamas embedded itself throughout Gaza that they care not for the general population, so why would we think they wouldn’t use the death of children to further their goals.

Again, if the only way for Israel to lose this conflict is by losing its Allies and their financial and military support, why would the Israeli government tolerate indiscriminate killing of Palestinians and especially the children? I’m sure their have been unfortunate killings by some rogue members of the IDF…this happens in war and no nation can deny this has not happened before; however, it is in no way beneficial to Israel for this to happen. It is beneficial to Hamas for this to happen.

Is it not curious why Egypt, Jordan, or other Islamic countries won’t accept Palestinian refugees? They know that Hamas is embedded in this population and that the majority of the population is pro-Hamas and radicalized. They don’t want these people in their countries.

This appears to be a classic FAFO situation. The Palestinians in Gaza were supportive of Hamas, parents of Palestinian children allowed them to be radicalized in schools, and Palestinians celebrated the 7th of October attacks (and 9/11 as I clearly remember). I don’t know how we are now supposed to blame Israel for what is happening to them? It appears to be self-inflicted!

I generally hate the "both sides" argument that has become prevalent with moderates these days... but I really am sick of both sides here.

You set up a scenario that suggests Israel won't commit atrocities b/c it's the only way for it to lose American support. However, I don't think that's the way the approach the issue -- first, Israel correctly assumes that in general America will tolerate a brutal crackdown in response to terrorism. There are ample examples of human behavior that show we're willing to be brutal to others if we are scared -- and launching a terror attack that killed over a thousand people and raped dozens if not hundreds and kidnapped more, is frightening. There is very much a natural human reaction to want to hit back with everything no matter who gets in the way. Israel assumes America will side with them in that reaction. It doesn't mean it's a good reaction morally or even from a long term effectiveness. But it is understandable... even to the point of mass displacement of millions of non-combatants, women and children.

Second, Israel has spent decades influencing American political opinions. They have a high degree of confidence that they can lean on that no matter what they do in the short term. Especially when they have a precipitating event that is objectively horrific.

Finally, I think you might underestimate how much contempt some of the more extreme members of the Israeli population has for Americans, Christians, Arabs and Muslims. And that extreme wing has an outsized seat at the Israeli government's table. They are a definitive minority in Israel, but larger than you'd think and they wield outsized influence in the government. They really will push the bounds of what is acceptable, American opinion be damned. They also want from the river to the sea -- only all Israel.

As far as Palestinians being supportive of Hamas - that is not entirely true. They had elections decades ago, and Hamas got a plurality, but less than 50%, and they ran on economic issues at the time and criticized the very corrupt Palestinian Authority. Since that time they have squashed any opposition and about half of all Palestinians in Gaza were not even born when the last elections were held. It's really hard to say they support Hamas, when all you have is a police state there.

However, you are of course correct that there is tons of propaganda in the Palestinian population that begins from a young age, and anti-Semitism is virulent. You can say that it's a natural outcome of being conquered and then held under military occupation with limited rights for 70 years. Which is somewhat true -- in that, just as I can understand a brutal Israeli response to decades of terrorism, I can understand violent Palestinian reactions to brutal crackdowns and military occupation. It also doesn't make it moral or a sound long term strategy.

What all of the excuse making for both Israelis and Palestinians ignores is that people still have agency over themselves. I've been there, and they all have the internet, fairly open -- they have access to more information and books and so on. It is certainly harder for them, than for those of us who live in relative peace and security... but it is still all out there for them.

At this point, I'm ready to walk away from the whole mess -- basically say not a dollar or weapon more to anyone until they agree and make positive steps to enacting policies that affirm the right of every single person in that region to live in peace, security with a functional viable government that they believe represents them. At this point, I don't think we can dictate what that is -- they need to do that themselves, but we don't have to keep supporting this clusterfork.

 

[Heathen Saint]

I suppose that is how history is taught in the Land of the Mushroom People. I was talking about the Real World.

Dude, read your own link, Truman et al thought hard about it, and dropping two bombs was the only realistic option to end the war quickly, decisively, and with less loss of life (less than invading the islands would have caused). Imperial Japan posed a threat to the world, and they were systematically doing thousands of horrible things and needed to be shut down completely; I will not waste ink on it here but you can google it if interested.

Okay, and you're blatantly operating under a false dichotomy which you asserted earlier. You remember that, don't you?

Here - I'll quote your statement earlier - talking about Japan:

"They did horrible and shocking things for years as part of an offensive war. We had to do something horrible and shocking to stop them in our defensive war."

All I mentioned was that there were other options. When you act as if 'horrible and shocking' (which I guess equates to atomic bombs) is the only way to counteract, then you're just oversimplifying the situation to reduce a complex situations to two options - kill 100,000+ or risk having that done to us.

Just because we didn't exercise other options at the time doesn't mean they didn't exist, or that they weren't valid. Hell, man. There are 4 options listed in bold which constitute most of the article. Did you skip over that yourself, comrade?

Your statement also completely ignores what I'd shared with Dave earlier regarding the state of Japan at that time. The point isn't "well but they could have done something". It's that they weren't in the capacity to do so, thus the act of obliterating hundreds of thousands of people was
in the very, very least...like the most gracious I'll be to your narrative..HIGHLY questionable, ethically speaking.

 

[Heathen Saint]

So, uh..

Will Biden telling the American public that Netanyahu admitted to slaughtering Palestinian civilians and didn't want to be told to stop --- change any minds here?

..Bueller....?

Biden: "Bibi, you can't be carpet bombing these communities"
Netanyahu: "Well you did it..you carpet bomb..you dropped a nuclear weapon..killed thousands of innocent people. Because you had to in order to win a war."
Biden: "But thats why we came up with the UN. New deals for what we do relevant to civilians and the military"

 

[efil4stnias]

For all those who seem to have their heels dug in that Israel is 'fighting a war' and it's simply 'Israel vs Hamas' and keep fighting against the fact that this is a genocide.....

Maybe the CURRENT POTUS telling us that Netanyahu admitted to carpet bombing civilians in Palestine will change your mind?
What about the UN? I thought that it was this joke of an organization? Why is Biden justifying its existence?

He mentions he's paraphrasing some of this, but here ya go (from the video):
Biden: "Bibi, you can't be carpet bombing these communities"
Netanyahu: "Well you did it..you carpet bomb..you dropped a nuclear weapon..killed thousands of innocent people. Because you had to in order to win a war."
Biden: "But thats why we came up with the UN. New deals for what we do relevant to civilians and the military"





Now, what do I think about this? I think Biden's trying to save face. I think he's involved in a genocide and it's an uncomfortable thing.

But he makes some KEY admissions there that tell us a LOT. And honestly -- at least for some of us, aren't very surprising.

If the POTUS saying Israel admitted to slaughtering innocent people doesn't change your mind about Israel's intentions - I doubt thousands of images of dead children will either.

im only going to chime in here because you, and others, seem to have this misconception of what "WAR" is.

War, by its very nature, is to either eradicate the opposition, or inflict enough death and destruction make them bend the knee. Thats it. Thats ALL IT EVER WAS going back to the Mongols, the Roman Empire, British Empire etc etc.

Thats IT. If the enemy continues to churn out warriors, you keep going until they cant. Its barbaric. Its disgusting. But its "War".

Somewhere along the way, the term "war" got watered-down. Im no historian, but i would go back to Korean war, followed by Vietnam war. Not 30 years post WWII and the MASSIVE loss of life and destruction, you couldnt conduct an all out war without domestic repercussions. So we started inventing "smart bombs" that made its way into the psyche of every American. Oh you can put a missile thru a window and target only those you want to target? WOW ok.

Technology changed the way in which warring was conducted. No longer hand-to-hand combat. No longer trench warfare or infantry moving across an open field getting mowed down by automatic .50cal - we had the technology ( and money ) to make warring seem less "destructive" for both sides - especially innocents.

So here we are today- we have 2 countries at war - Russia ( v Ukraine ) and Israel ( V Palestine/Hamas/Hezbollah etc )

Here is a post from just today from RuAF.
This one has the video/still photo removed, but if so inclined, you can click for link.



The reason i post this is because you see, Russia(ns) understand "WAR" and what it takes to win. Kill everyone. Or kill as many as it takes to make them submit/surrender. Israel is no different in this regard.

Meanwhile, US has fought Vietnam, GW1, GW2, Afghanistan- with "rules of engagement". And those rules, once figured out by the enemy, get exploited. RULES of ENGAGEMENT in a war is not war. Its lopsided. Especially when your opponent has ZERO restrictions/rules. You cannot effectively fight nor win a war when you have 1 hand tied behind your back.


But we Americans havent seen/lived a REAL WAR as most of us werent around for 1918 thru 1945. And the powers that be wanted to avoid another WW1/WW2 at all costs.

So now we fight conflicts with half the intent, thinking our superior tech and weaponry will make the enemy submit. But when the enemy, TO A MAN, has no intention of surrendering or submitting, and is ready to DIE for what he deems necessary, and you are not, you cant win that WAR. They keep coming.

I say all this so that folks can understand when Putin or Bibi say "war" - they mean war. Not some "targeting operation" that they announce to the world 'how long and what we will do, how far we will go ( and not go ) etc etc"

No they mean all out war. Kill everyone or make them submit. Thats war. Thats what we are seeing today. Its just we havent seen this level of death and destruction since 1945.

 

[baarbogast]

 

[HoustonSaint68]

I generally hate the "both sides" argument that has become prevalent with moderates these days... but I really am sick of both sides here.

You set up a scenario that suggests Israel won't commit atrocities b/c it's the only way for it to lose American support. However, I don't think that's the way the approach the issue -- first, Israel correctly assumes that in general America will tolerate a brutal crackdown in response to terrorism. There are ample examples of human behavior that show we're willing to be brutal to others if we are scared -- and launching a terror attack that killed over a thousand people and raped dozens if not hundreds and kidnapped more, is frightening. There is very much a natural human reaction to want to hit back with everything no matter who gets in the way. Israel assumes America will side with them in that reaction. It doesn't mean it's a good reaction morally or even from a long term effectiveness. But it is understandable... even to the point of mass displacement of millions of non-combatants, women and children.

Second, Israel has spent decades influencing American political opinions. They have a high degree of confidence that they can lean on that no matter what they do in the short term. Especially when they have a precipitating event that is objectively horrific.

Finally, I think you might underestimate how much contempt some of the more extreme members of the Israeli population has for Americans, Christians, Arabs and Muslims. And that extreme wing has an outsized seat at the Israeli government's table. They are a definitive minority in Israel, but larger than you'd think and they wield outsized influence in the government. They really will push the bounds of what is acceptable, American opinion be damned. They also want from the river to the sea -- only all Israel.

As far as Palestinians being supportive of Hamas - that is not entirely true. They had elections decades ago, and Hamas got a plurality, but less than 50%, and they ran on economic issues at the time and criticized the very corrupt Palestinian Authority. Since that time they have squashed any opposition and about half of all Palestinians in Gaza were not even born when the last elections were held. It's really hard to say they support Hamas, when all you have is a police state there.

However, you are of course correct that there is tons of propaganda in the Palestinian population that begins from a young age, and anti-Semitism is virulent. You can say that it's a natural outcome of being conquered and then held under military occupation with limited rights for 70 years. Which is somewhat true -- in that, just as I can understand a brutal Israeli response to decades of terrorism, I can understand violent Palestinian reactions to brutal crackdowns and military occupation. It also doesn't make it moral or a sound long term strategy.

What all of the excuse making for both Israelis and Palestinians ignores is that people still have agency over themselves. I've been there, and they all have the internet, fairly open -- they have access to more information and books and so on. It is certainly harder for them, than for those of us who live in relative peace and security... but it is still all out there for them.

At this point, I'm ready to walk away from the whole mess -- basically say not a dollar or weapon more to anyone until they agree and make positive steps to enacting policies that affirm the right of every single person in that region to live in peace, security with a functional viable government that they believe represents them. At this point, I don't think we can dictate what that is -- they need to do that themselves, but we don't have to keep supporting this clusterfork.

Wisest post of the entire thread.

Both leadership sides are abhorrent and have lost any sense of morality and any claim to the moral high ground. And, as in most of human history, the innocents are caught in the middle.

It’s sadly ironic how thousands of years of talking past one another is played out here on this thread writ small.