My last attempt (3 Viewers)

[jrdbrn]

David Robbins, is that you sitting on the corner yelling into your mic at the intersection?

I do believe in God. I don't believe in "end times". All those people waiting for the end times, died waiting... or maybe their death was their end time.

 

[TheMike62987]

Yeah, that's exactly what I said.

 

[DaveXA]

I told myself I would not come back to this thread, but I can't help myself after reading through it all last night.

Not sure why I feel the need to qualify this once again, but for the record, after growing up in the Catholic Church and Catholic school in my youth, I now consider myself Agnostic. Some may say that that's the cop-out view, but I am among many that are of the belief that there's a chance that there is a God, but are also not going to blindly follow one just because everyone else does or because my grandparents did. It is easy for us to believe in a god blessing us, living in our current conditions in this flawed, but otherwise great country. What about the starving people in Africa? What about the babies being killed around the globe? What about the 7-year old forced to live under the I-10 bridge? Has God just decided he does not like them?

Do I believe firm believers are wrong? No. Do I believe atheists are wrong? No. I believe that neither side can definitively state anything, no matter what they convince themselves of or what their ancestors have passed-on to them.

Do I believe a man named Jesus (or something like that) once walked the Earth proclaiming to be God? Probably. Does that necessarily mean he was God? Probably not.

I'm not willing to bank my time and energy on a story from the opposite side of the world, at a period of time when people weren't very sophisticated at all to the point where they were nailing people to crosses, to believe that someone was God in the flesh just because people from 2000+ years ago believed it. What if Jesus was a master illusionist and the biggest con in human history? What if this is a simple, middle eastern fable that just happened to get bigger and bigger as it passed from generation to generation? What if "the Resurrection" was hoax, perpetrated by his closest followers? What if he truly was never dead in the first place? I'm not saying that's what I firmly believe, but those are questions I have as a man, and based on the laws of physics/science that I know, at least one of the handful of questions I just posed are more likely to be accurate than not.

To me, there's probably a better chance than not that humans are not as special as we believe we are. The moment we find life elsewhere in space is the moment we realize we're not and that this entire universe isn't all about us or for us (I believe this event will happen either in our lifetime or in my children's lifetime). There's more scientific evidence than not that we aren't special. Knowing what we know now, which was not known 2000+ years ago - that we're one of several hundred billion planets, located in one galaxy among a couple of trillion galaxies throughout the known universe, most of which with billions of planets of their own - it is incredibly statistically improbable that we're alone...and if we aren't alone, then what?

In regards to the church specifically - there's so many of them. Who is to say one church is wrong and the other is right? Obviously they all cannot be right. Am I supposed to believe Christianity is right just because I live in America and because that's what my grandparents and great grandparents believed in? To me, people believe in what they believe in because they psychologically NEED it. The scariest thing for the human race to learn is that they aren't special or that this world isn't all about them. It's a bit of an egotistical, downright arrogant flaw of ours. We inherently need to feel important.

To me, there's a better chance than not that church is something that was created thousands of years ago for a host of different reasons, chief among them -

• A way to control the masses via a threat of harm from a higher power, a threat that cannot be proven right now, but conveniently, in the "afterlife"
• To help us cope with loved ones that pass away, giving us peace of mind that "they're now in a better place"
• To help us cope with the thought of our own death, giving us peace of mind that heaven awaits us so we can live forever
• Money (more so an issue with modern-day churches)
• To give us peace of mind that someone is watching over us and our loved ones at all times
• Social time, gives people something to do with others, especially older people who may not get much social interaction outside of their Sunday church services
• To give us someone to blame ("the Devil") when we make bad decisions in our life
• To give us peace of mind that we're not alone in this grand universe, which at the time churches and religions were started, no one truly understood the vastness of our universe. Heck, back then, many people thought that are our planet was essentially the entire world.
• And lastly, to give ourselves a sense of purpose. "Since we're smart, have intelligent brains, are self-aware, and all the animals around us aren't, this entire thing has to be all about us, right?"

I would ask someone to prove to me that anything I stated above is not true, but I know that that's not possible. Just like if I were a firm believer and my entire post was a church sermon quoting bible verses, and someone asked me to prove what I said was true, I would not be able to.

That's why I conclude, as I stated yesterday, to each his own. Believe in what you believe in, but please don't tell me or others that we are damned to burn in hell for eternity or that their "head will be cut off" just because we don't believe in the same thing you believe in.

I don't have much time today to dive into this, but for now I'll just say that I went through the exact same progression and arrived at a different conclusion. It's an interesting comparison. I grew up Catholic, essentially was an agnostic during my early days of college, then became a follower of Jesus and eventually minister in the deaf community. I remain a man of faith, although I've decided to retire from official ministry to focus on supporting the family.

I've pondered time and again, the claims of Christianity as made in Scripture as well as those from other faiths, and yet my faith continues. Much respect to your comments though.

 

[Infoman]

If David is right, he's going to heaven... If David is right, you are NOT going to heaven....

If David is wrong, he's going where we all go.... If David is wrong, you are going where we all go...

Work your logic on that equation.... Right or Wrong... the odds are with DR....

God Bless....

 

[Goatman Saint]

If David is right, he's going to heaven... If David is right, you are NOT going to heaven....

If David is wrong, he's going where we all go.... If David is wrong, you are going where we all go...

Work your logic on that equation.... Right or Wrong... the odds are with DR....

God Bless....

They are? Where’s the proof? I’d say the odds are that we are simply like every other living thing on the face of the earth. We are born or sprouted, we grow, we die, we are gone. Circle of life continues. There is no more, no less. When the electrical signals in the brain stop, you’re done. Light switch thrown. Say goodnight Gracie.

 

[insidejob]

Merriam Webster defines it as “a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious”. Although I think that it’s peculiar that a smaller group with beliefs no one has heard of may be regarded as a cult whenever a large more historically established religion with some claims just as outlandish are accepted and respected. It’s human nature, but it is glaringly obvious to me that we’ve just become culturally sensitized to so much that we hardly question it.

Although I think that it’s peculiar that a smaller group with beliefs no one has heard of may be regarded as a cult whenever a large more historically established religion with some claims just as outlandish are accepted and respected. It’s human nature, but it is glaringly obvious to me that we’ve just become culturally sensitized to so much that we hardly question it.

Lots of people consider Hare Krishnas to be a cult - while their religion (Hinduism) is 2500+ years older than Christianity. Just because they're a smaller sect of Hinduism, which is widely accepted as a "legit religion" - they're not because they only focus on certain aspects of the Vedas and other Hindu scripture. People consider them a cult because they hand out free vegetarian food (Hindus eat no meat) and wear robes (anyone seen a Catholic priest lately?).

I'm pretty much with you on any and all organized religion being considered a cult - at least in some sense of the word. Even the small Buddhist sangha I belong to, I'd consider to be a cult of sorts, just don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. I guess that's what Dave was talking about with having to come to a consensus on what the definition of a cult is. Webster's definition is the widely accepted view, but what makes one's religion more valid than any others'? The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster - if it has believers shouldn't be considered a cult just because people of established religions don't think it's legit. (I'm not getting into tax exempt status or any of that because I don't think religions should be tax exempt in the first place. They're money printing machines - or at least the most widely accepted ones are.)

 

[Infoman]

They are? Where’s the proof? I’d say the odds are that we are simply like every other living thing on the face of the earth. We are born or sprouted, we grow, we die, we are gone. Circle of life continues. There is no more, no less. When the electrical signals in the brain stop, you’re done. Light switch thrown. Say goodnight Gracie.

No side of this discussion has any "proof".... Hence my comment .... If David is wrong, he's going where we all go.... If David is wrong, you are going where we all go... I.e. "Nowhere"

Like I said, doesn't matter what you believe... Logic is... he has better odds of eternal bliss... as your odds sit at 0% to go to heaven... 50% the opposite of heaven... 50% eternal nothing (and this is your best case scenario)...

Just saying... I like DR's odds.

 

[You]

The fact that you can conceive of a god is proof that there is a god

 

[insidejob]

Anyone on here ever read The Gnostic Scriptures (or at least some of them) - and if so, what do you think about them? I just started getting into them a little bit (they're not the easiest read, kinda like sitting down and just trying to read the Bible cover to cover as a book) and find them to be rather interesting. The scriptures it contains were written before the time of Constantine (A.D. 306) and/or the establishment of an orthodox Christianity

 

[insidejob]

The fact that you can conceive of a god is proof that there is a god

How so, if you don't mind me asking? To me, God would be so great as to be incomprehensible by our mere mortal consciousness. I guess that's why I'm drawn to a "religion" that doesn't bother with the idea of a God.

 

[boutrous]

To me, people believe in what they believe in because they psychologically NEED it.

This is exactly the conclusion I keep coming to. When things are out of our control, we hope that there is someone out there looking out for our greater best interest. It's comforting. When we lose someone we love dearly, we hope one day to see them again. It's comforting. I don't claim to have the answers, but what I do know is that some people NEED it more than others. I think people need the comfort of living eternally so their life has meaning. To me, the opposite is true. Our lives mean so much precisely because they are short and fragile. I just personally don't see enough evidence of a benevolent micro-manager with a bad temper but a good heart. If there are higher beings, we certainly haven't painted an accurate picture of them at all.

 

[Brennan77]

The fact that you can conceive of a god is proof that there is a god

If my daughter had been a son his name would have been Anselm. I don't know that his ontological argument completely works for me, but I don't know that it doesn't either.

 

[Brennan77]

How so, if you don't mind me asking? To me, God would be so great as to be incomprehensible by our mere mortal consciousness. I guess that's why I'm drawn to a "religion" that doesn't bother with the idea of a God.

You'd need to read a bit on ontological arguments. St Anselm would be a good place to start, formulating this style of "proof" in the 11th century.

The argument largely functions on the distinction between contingent and necessary existence. It's basically the idea that we can conceive of the perfect being who necessarily exist, whose nature it is to be. If that notion is reasonable, then God must exist because His nature necessarily says He does.

 

[DCSaints_Fan]

They are? Where’s the proof? I’d say the odds are that we are simply like every other living thing on the face of the earth. We are born or sprouted, we grow, we die, we are gone. Circle of life continues. There is no more, no less. When the electrical signals in the brain stop, you’re done. Light switch thrown. Say goodnight Gracie.

No, they are alot more than two choices. Islam, reincarnation, etc. And how about the possibility of a "God of Reason" which rewards people who use logic, as opposed to taking a collection of 2000+ year old writings as infaillible truth?

 

[Consigliere]

If David is right, he's going to heaven... If David is right, you are NOT going to heaven....

If David is wrong, he's going where we all go.... If David is wrong, you are going where we all go...

Work your logic on that equation.... Right or Wrong... the odds are with DR....

This is called Pascal's Wager. The conclusion is supposed to be that you're better-off covering your bets by believing because it's better if you do and you're right but it doesn't matter if you're wrong. But it works better the other way.

If David is right, when St. Peter takes us to task when we arrive at the Pearly Gates, we can ask him: WTF? Why we were given a brain and told not to use it? Why not give us evidence? Why instill in us 7 deadly sins and tell us to avoid them?

If David is wrong, he is missing out on a lot of lust, greed, etc. that the rest of us have been enjoying.