N/S Pats fans going off on Cooks and Brady (1 Viewer)

[bobad]

<s>Young Ginn couldn't catch a cold</s>.

We need a dawg, a fighter, someone that won't be denied and can help the rest of the WRs by taking the entire receiving corps on his back. Thomas benefitted from Cooks taking the doubles last year, but we lost him. We need someone with Cooks speed and hands, coupled with Steve Smith's tenacity, and that combination is a Deandre Hopkins or Antonio Brown type of WR. Fighters, who will not be denied. I don't watch WRs coming out of college like I do the Defense - all defense, QBs, RBs and OLine, so I don't know if any coming out meets that criteria.

Well, Payton won't draft someone with bad hands, so you can stike that out. The rest is obvious. Miller fits that mold, he and Thomas would make a murderous pair.

 

[ELLIASJWILLIAMS]

As I said earlier the comparison to Smith is way off. He was nowhere near as strong nor had the vertical leap of Steve Smith....Smith was lineman strong in the upper body, which allowed him to easily get seperation most of the time....Cooks did not possess this ability.

I will repeat there may never be another 5;10" WR with the combination of speed, strength and leaping ability of Smith. He played like he was 6'2" and 220....

The comparison to Smith is way off now but during the draft a lot of talking heads compared him to Steve Smith as a ceiling.

This is why the Saints started him off at Punt Returner his rookie year. They were EXPECTING him to be good at this. They were EXPECTING him to be good at a lot of things.

There were several articles notions b4 the draft that were just flat out off. This quote was from ESPN

"His best attribute comes after the catch as he shows above-average elusiveness, open field vision and flashes an extra gear to take it the distance when getting into space," Weidl writes. "Cooks' game resembles that of Carolina Panthers WR Steve Smith and he could be in the early Day 2 mix should he declare after the season." We expect Cooks to declare for the draft and potentially earn All-American honors. Our own Josh Norris has compared him to Victor Cruz due to Cooks' ability to win from the slot and outside.

NFL Draft | Brandin Cooks draws a Steve Smith comparison - Rotoworld.com

Shows elusiveness, creativity and vision after the catch.

NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Brandin Cooks

As with any other player, there have been a lot of comparisons thrown around about Cooks, but one that seems to stick the most is that to Carolina Panthers wideout, Steve Smith.

https://fansided.com/2014/02/12/nfl...andin-cooks-welcomes-steve-smith-comparisons/

Cooks says his ideal NFL comparison is Steve Smith, an outside-the-numbers jump-ball winner undeterred by stature. He relishes traffic. He also happens to be the fastest receiver in this draft. Kiper has called him an “oh-so-slightly more athletic version of Tavon Austin,” who went eighth overall a year ago.

The Big Promise of Brandin Cooks «

Even an article from Duncan that seemed to zero in on what the Saints were "expecting" from Cooks vs what they got over 3 years.

He's a playmaker," Payton said.

At Oregon State, Cooks did it all. He split wide and ran go routes. He played in the slot and caught bubble screens. He took reverse handoffs and returned punts and kicks. Saints fans should expect to see him in a similar role in the Superdome.

"He's a threat," Payton said. "He's a guy that can be used a lot of ways."

Brandin Cooks is the new Reggie Bush, Darren Sproles for the New Orleans Saints | Jeff Duncan | NOLA.com


The last quote the most important and validates my point. They truly thought they were getting a multi faceted threat and he was not that. They got a good WR with strong hands and deep ball ability. He does/did make plays but just not in all of the ways they were "expecting"

He's a good not great receiver....yet. He's only 24 years of age and he'll continue to improve but he did not fit the new direction of this offense. Especially as a run blocker which Thomas, Snead, and Coleman have been putting in work there and Ginn barely used in those formations.

They did right to move on from him.

 

[Portland]

Well, I am not sure if you have been sleeping on Pitt, but there is another ~ 5'10" WR, that has more speed, just as strong with better leaping ability...and is blowing it up this year.

He goes by the name of AB, because he absolutely blowuptuates your defense.

I do think Smith was stronger as well but AB is a true artist. His finesse, agility, and route running are better than Smith's.

Fun facts. Calvin Johnson is the fastest player to 10,000 yards receiving doing it in 115 games played. Antonio Brown is currently at 114 games played with 9,886 yards. He needs 114 yards this week to join Calvin. The even more eye popping stat is that AB hardly even played his first season at all getting only 167 yards in 9 games played his first year. He's made up that much ground. If he continues to stay healthy and can and does decide to play as lengthy career while having solid production, he may be the only player I can think of that could challenge Rice for his all time receiving yardage record or get near it.

If Brown averages around 1,150 yards the next 5 years (which is doable for a player of his caliber) he could pass TO as second all time in two years shorter of a time than TO did. Putting him around 16,000 yards in 13 years played.

Julio could make a run as well but I feel as though he is often getting nagging injuries that will eventually hamper the length of his career. He has stayed health just 2 years of the 7 he has played missing a total of 17 games.

 

[sfidc3]

The comparison to Smith is way off now but during the draft a lot of talking heads compared him to Steve Smith as a ceiling.

This is why the Saints started him off at Punt Returner his rookie year. They were EXPECTING him to be good at this. They were EXPECTING him to be good at a lot of things.

There were several articles notions b4 the draft that were just flat out off. This quote was from ESPN



NFL Draft | Brandin Cooks draws a Steve Smith comparison - Rotoworld.com




NFL Events: Combine Player Profiles - Brandin Cooks



https://fansided.com/2014/02/12/nfl...andin-cooks-welcomes-steve-smith-comparisons/



The Big Promise of Brandin Cooks «

Even an article from Duncan that seemed to zero in on what the Saints were "expecting" from Cooks vs what they got over 3 years.






Brandin Cooks is the new Reggie Bush, Darren Sproles for the New Orleans Saints | Jeff Duncan | NOLA.com


The last quote the most important and validates my point. They truly thought they were getting a multi faceted threat and he was not that. They got a good WR with strong hands and deep ball ability. He does/did make plays but just not in all of the ways they were "expecting"

He's a good not great receiver....yet. He's only 24 years of age and he'll continue to improve but he did not fit the new direction of this offense. Especially as a run blocker which Thomas, Snead, and Coleman have been putting in work there and Ginn barely used in those formations.

They did right to move on from him.

Boy, I didn't realize or remember all the comparisons to Smith, it just goes to show how many so-called experts really don't understand the basics of the WR position. Smith is a 1st ballot hall of famer, one of the reasons why is unbelievable upper body strength...and that equals consistent separation....Cooks did not then and will never have that kind of strength, nor does he get that kind of consistent seperation.

I would be willing to bet that some these so-called experts don't even understand the difference between speed and quickness. Or how quickness drills (cone and shuttle) are more important than 40 times....

Agreed, the Saints made a good choice. Ram is way more valuable to the Saints offense than Cooks....

 

[mccombmike]

The Saints should offer to take him back for a sixth rounder.

 

[Joodas Avila]

and there are many more.....you guys are trippin'. Cooks is a great receiver and I hated to see him go.

Cooks is good. I dont think anyone is saying he's not. And the problem is not his ability to get "separation", as all these clips clearly show. He's def getting enough separation and always has. Cooks issue has always been his size and his CATCH RADIUS. He's no Steve Smith, TY Hilton, OBJ, D-Jax, Edelman, etc. Those are shorter dudes have crazy catch radiuses.

Look at the placement on those balls. Drew is pretty much putting it right on Cooks. I've always seen Cooks as a straight line receiver only, who's average at best when it comes to RAC and making people miss w/the ball in his hands. That's still pretty much the same thing I'm seeing in NE.

 

[Saints 4 life]

But would you trade 5 years of Ramchyk for 2 years of Cooks?

Nope, but that doesn't change what I said in my earlier post.

 

[DABOOT162]

Do I really need to bust out stats? Everytime I think I see the dumbest post ever I see something that blows it out of the water.



Ginn has 46 for 678 with 3 tds.

Cooks last year had 78 for 1173 with 8tds.



You guys are just flat out haters.

We haven’t used him because we have a more balanced attack... duh. What were our rushing numbers with cooks? Dont just tell part of the story and call somone else dumb... Ginn is far better in space and is still a great deep threat. Cooks is good at taking the top off... thats it.. period. Im not saying he isnt a great receiver.. I would just prefer Ginn on my team because he brings more to the table


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[DABOOT162]

I wouldn't go that far. Cooks has far superior hands and is still very young. Ginn will only give you about half the production as a WR. You could argue that Ginn as a returner gets it a little closer but I think 32 out of 32 teams take Cooks over Ginn straight up....

How many drops does Ginn have this year versus Cooks?

Edit: Cooks has three, Ginn has 1. So there’s that..

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[Vermont Saint]

So one year is better than 5? Please never get into anything requiring numbers. Smith is A THUG.

I think you're right. If people here think Cooks was disruptive for publicly expressing his desire to get the ball more often, I can't help but wonder what they think of Smith's insane, violent behavior towards his own team.

Smith sent home by Panthers after hurting Lucas in sideline fight

Carolina's then coach, John Fox, had to warn the rest of the team not to retaliate against Smith.

There is no doubt that Smith was an excellent WR, but he also sucked all the air out of the room in Carolina. This is why he was traded- his presence was thought to be inhibiting the growth of Newton and their offense. Cooks has been widely praised by both Brees and Brady as a consummate professional. His numbers thus far are at least the equal of Smith's at this point in their careers (while effectively 16 months younger than Smith) playing for two vary diverse offenses in which there is no number one target.

At some point people will have to accept that both Cooks and Ram are excellent players, and this trade was beneficial to both teams.

 

[WhiteWolf]

I&#8217;ve read 2 ridiculous statements on here. 1 is that smith couldn&#8217;t hold cooks jockstrap. I think prime Steve smith is 100% better than what we have seen in cooks. Pretty identical players but smith would play like he was 6&#8217;5&#8221;. 2nd is the &#8220;give me Ginn all day over Cooks&#8221;. That&#8217;s just absolutely ridiculous.

I was mad we made this trade because I felt that teams had to account for him and take him out, thus enabling Michael Thomas to be in favorable matchups all game. I knew that when we traded Cooks, Thomas would have a harder time getting the ball. You just have to factor in that we lost Strief and basically traded Cooks for Ramczyk. We&#8217;d be hurting in the o line right now. So, all in all, the Cooks trade has been working out for both teams but I&#8217;d say the Saints are winners here.

 

[dapperdan]

Steve Smith is not a first ballot hall of famer, not even close. Julio Jones is and so is Antonio Brown. Hall of famers are supposed to the best at their position. Smith was only the best at throwing a sucker punch. ONE SEASON WITH OVER 90 CATCHES. ONE.......Smith's best ability outside of the sucker punch was his longevity. Easily one of the most overrated players of all time. Next you are going to tell me that Dez Bryant is a hall of famer because he had 2 90 catch seasons.

And Steve Smith can't hold Cooks jock for the first 4 years. All the people on here that praise Smith really do surprise me. Would you rather have a thug or someone who was a team player. No one can ever tell me that Cooks didn't help MT get open but most of you guys will never give him credit for it.

Smith had 3 years out of 16 that were better than Cooks so far. Overrated. Once again he isn't qualified to sniff Cooks jock. You guys need to realize that he may have killed Haslett's defenses and the early Payton ones but his overall numbers don't reflect that.

3 out of 16.....you guys make me laugh. They also are dang near identical in ypc.

8 out of 16 years Smith didn't even get to 1000 yards. HE IS A THUG and all of you Smith lovers have some weird ideas that he was so great.

 

[dapperdan]

We haven’t used him because we have a more balanced attack... duh. What were our rushing numbers with cooks? Dont just tell part of the story and call somone else dumb... Ginn is far better in space and is still a great deep threat. Cooks is good at taking the top off... thats it.. period. Im not saying he isnt a great receiver.. I would just prefer Ginn on my team because he brings more to the table


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I don't think you are dumb.....not even close. However it comes across as pure hatred when you say Ginn has been better. He hasn't helped the other WRs get open this year. Our best weapon in the passing game is Kamara this year and it's not close. I absolutely love Mike Thomas but he can't take the top off of a defense. Cooks elite speed helped every single one on offense. We need speed and Ginn has it but he is the only one. And while Ginn has speed he can't run like Cooks at this point in his career.

And it definitely helps to have a QB lock in on a WR. Ever heard of Willie Jackson.....he couldn't of played for a good receiving corp but AB made him have decent games by locking in on him.

 

[Saintshizzle]

I don't think you are dumb.....not even close. However it comes across as pure hatred when you say Ginn has been better. He hasn't helped the other WRs get open this year. Our best weapon in the passing game is Kamara this year and it's not close. I absolutely love Mike Thomas but he can't take the top off of a defense. We need speed and Ginn has it but he is the only one. And while Ginn has speed he can't run like Cooks at this point in his career.

We are having trouble getting the ball to Ginn deep, which is why we hardly see it happen. I don't even think we are attempting anymore, so it's not a fair comparison...depending on where fairness lies for you. Different view for different people. Brees knew he had to try and air it to Cooks, and well the results left Cooks feeling a bit unloved.

Honestly, any speedster that can catch it on the deep will possibly feel like that playing with us now. We aren't that team anymore, and we will soon have to make a change if we want to see deep passes that can satisfy Cooks or a Ginn type player:

From the beginning of 2016 onward, Brees has tossed the fifth-highest percentage of short passes (under 10 yards), with 53.6 percent of his throws targeted at that range....

Although he has posted the third-highest passer rating (105.4) and a touchdown-to-interception ratio of 25:3 (or 8.3 percent) on "short" passes, I find it interesting that he exceeds the league average (48.7 percent) in short pass attempts by such a significant margin. You always think of Brees as a downfield attacker based on the numbers of deep seam throws that have dotted his highlight reels over the years, but it's simply not the case. The veteran has become a masterful "dink and dunk" artist who prefers to stretch the field horizontally instead of vertically at this stage of his career.

"Brees has become more of a short-game specialist later in [his] career," said a former NFL defensive coordinator with a long history of playing against Brees. "He will still take shots down the field, but he has to get it 'out and up' quickly to mask his declining arm strength. He can still hurt you with the deep ball, but primarily carves defenses up with an assortment of short passes."

Studying the All-22 Coaches Film confirmed that the Saints' offense features a number of quick-rhythm passes designed for the quarterback to get the ball out of his hands quickly. The Saints will throw the ball to wide receivers or running backs on the perimeter to allow them to chew up yardage on various "catch and run" concepts like quick screens, snags and short-crossers. Those routes not only put the Saints' best playmakers on the move, but they are effective blitz-beaters to counter five-man (or more) pressures from the defense.

With the majority of the routes targeted at short distances, Brees is able to feast on layups to get into a groove. As a result, he is completing a league-best 71.6 percent of his passes. In addition, Brees leads all passers in completions of 20-plus yards with 45 "explosives" on the stat sheet. Looking even deeper at the numbers, I discovered that 74.9 percent of his throws this season were considered "short" passes, per Next Gen Stats, and he posted the ninth-fastest snap-to-throw times (2.55 seconds). Given the fact that 53.5 percent of Brees' passing yards are amassed through "YAC" (yards after catch), the Saints have gotten more production out of their quarterback by featuring layups and the quick game prominently in the plan.

"The Saints' passing game puts the onus on the defensive backs to make tackles," said the former NFL defensive coordinator. "If your team can't tackle in space, you have no chance."

That's why I would expect teams to not only copy what Payton has done from a tactical standpoint, but to take a page from the Saints' personnel approach. The decision to feature a pair of hybrids (Mark Ingram and Alvin Kamara) in the backfield has made life easier for the quarterback. Each player is a capable runner adept at running between the tackles or on the edges while also displaying outstanding skills as pass catchers. This allows the Saints to use the same plays with either playmaker in the game.

With the duo leading the league in combined rushing yards (1,265), yards from scrimmage (1,925) and scrimmage touchdowns (15), the Saints' 1-2 punch at running back has helped Brees rack up yardage on an assortment of screens (slow and quick) and some isolated routes from spread or empty formations. Not to mention, No. 9 will routinely drop the ball off to his running backs as designated outlets to combat opponents intent on taking away deeper throws...A blueprint for the QB-needy; Saints making most of Drew Brees - NFL.com

 

[dapperdan]

I agree to a point SS but since we are still at the top of league in plays over 20 yards I tend to think the opportunities are there especially since our running game is elite. Now we could say Drew might not want to throw it deep as much but that's hard to say. Ginn has been a pleasant surprise but he is no Brandin Cooks.