Pat Kirwan said he heard Carr didn’t want to do Saints contract restructure (7 Viewers)

[BoxerJoe]

Agreed. Carr isn't a bad QB. He's middle of the road, but because he was DA's guy he is seen as worse than he actually is. I've gone on the record many times as wanting to move on from Carr, but mostly because his salary makes it harder to rebuild with than with a QB making less money. But, you can win 7 to 10 games with Carr if you get the DA stink away from the entire team and add some OL and WR/TE help.

The Saints won 9 games (you could argue it would have been 10 had he not gotten knocked out the GB game) with Carr his first season here and that was with the DA stink running things. Is Carr's ceiling the same with Moore as it was with DA?

 

[No2DC]

That's the thing though, this team isn't trying to rebuild. We need to start taking Loomis at his word. He thinks this is a competitive roster across the board. He thought that DA shouldn't have been fired and I am 100% convinced that had Gayle not pulled the trigger DA would still be coaching the team.

I think it's beyond time to be talking solely about Carr and instead talk about how Loomis is an impediment to actually fielding a successful team. He has the ultimate authority and responsibility for the team and criticism continually gets passed to players, coaches and even his own scouting staff. No real ideological changes are coming for as long as he remains.

This. We are restricted from adding this to the discussion because "he who shall not be named" has lifelong employment, which circumvents a significant portion of our current dilemma.

 

[1K SPORT]

My issue isn't he is a DA guy. Shoot, he only played with DA 4-5 games as a Raider? Understand he was drafted by him (or Al Davis). DA might not even have had anything to do with drafting Carr with the way Davis ran things. DA and Carr certainly didn't help each other. Here or in Oakland.

I can remember after the Raiders benched him and the chatter started up about the Saints picking him up. I was sitting around my counter throwing a few back with a buddy of mine who is a Raider Fan. I was saying how I didn't want anything to do with him and really hope the Saints wouldn't sign him. My buddy was threatening me that he was going to buy me a Carr jersey if the Saints did sign him. I made it very clear, it would be a complete waste of his money if he did that. He still laughs at me because we are stuck with him.

 

[Elvis]

I don't mean rebuild in the sense of tear it down and rebuild. I mean a soft rebuild which is what Loomis called it. I'd rather speed it up by parting ways with Carr, Mathieu, Jordan, and Hill, but they can still rebuild while maintaining a competitive team. But, I honestly don't see the huge difference if this is the last year for Carr, Hill, Jordan, and Mathieu. And even this year, Jordan and Mathieu took pay cuts and I expect Hill will as well.

The key either way is to draft better and then have the coaching staff to develop those players. Frankly whether they tear it down or they continue trying to be competitive, neither is going to work if they don't start drafting better and just draft more players. And, IMO, the draft is how you build a team. Cap money and free agency should be used to sign your own good players to 2nd contracts and to fill in holes before the draft so you can take BPA. But, first, you have to draft players that are worth 2nd contracts.

And some of this, I think comes down to poor coaching. I'll give Kubiak and his people as pass since he was only here for one year, but it does look like a staff that either wasn't good at developing talent or wasn't good at recognizing that talent and playing them. Too often guys leave here a play better either because they were developed well enough here or because they just weren't evaluated properly and/or didn't get a chance to play. Hopefully Moore, and his mostly young staff with a lot of college coaches mixed in, will be better at those things.

As far as Loomis not firing DA, I just disagree. I think Loomis was going to fire DA at the end of the season but Gail felt pressure from the players and fans and pulled the trigger. It was probably the right call in the end, but I think Loomis would have done it at the end of the season anyway. FWIW, Underhill said that he thinks Loomis was going to fire DA at the end of the season and he just didn't believe in firing coaches mid-season.

I don’t mean tear down either. This team is running it back with largely the same roster and the additions and losses of players is pretty much the same as what every team does every year. That doesn’t even indicate a soft rebuild to me.

And I get that there were some coaching issues, but these guys didn’t just forget how to play football and at times they looked completely inept on the field.

I still believe Loomis would have given DA the injury excuse and run it back. Nick and Mike have believed a lot of things about what Loomis would or should do that Loomis then did the opposite of.

 

[Chuck McGill Esq.]

The Saints won 9 games (you could argue it would have been 10 had he not gotten knocked out the GB game) with Carr his first season here and that was with the DA stink running things. Is Carr's ceiling the same with Moore as it was with DA?

Old starters then are now 2 years older. I also seem to remember we had one of the easiest NFL schedules that season. We may again, I don't know.

 

[St. Widge]

The Saints won 9 games (you could argue it would have been 10 had he not gotten knocked out the GB game) with Carr his first season here and that was with the DA stink running things. Is Carr's ceiling the same with Moore as it was with DA?

Well, 9 games is about the middle of 7 to 10 and they won 7 is 2022. But those 2022 and 2023 teams also had a much better defense than we have now because guys like Cam, Mathieu, and Demario were younger and better and we still had Adebo, Lattimore, and Ellis (Baun too but he had not emerged).

 

[kcirdor]

I don't mean rebuild in the sense of tear it down and rebuild. I mean a soft rebuild which is what Loomis called it. I'd rather speed it up by parting ways with Carr, Mathieu, Jordan, and Hill, but they can still rebuild while maintaining a competitive team. But, I honestly don't see the huge difference if this is the last year for Carr, Hill, Jordan, and Mathieu. And even this year, Jordan and Mathieu took pay cuts and I expect Hill will as well.

The key either way is to draft better and then have the coaching staff to develop those players. Frankly whether they tear it down or they continue trying to be competitive, neither is going to work if they don't start drafting better and just draft more players. And, IMO, the draft is how you build a team. Cap money and free agency should be used to sign your own good players to 2nd contracts and to fill in holes before the draft so you can take BPA. But, first, you have to draft players that are worth 2nd contracts.

And some of this, I think comes down to poor coaching. I'll give Kubiak and his people as pass since he was only here for one year, but it does look like a staff that either wasn't good at developing talent or wasn't good at recognizing that talent and playing them. Too often guys leave here a play better either because they weren't developed well enough here or because they just weren't evaluated properly and/or didn't get a chance to play. Hopefully Moore, and his mostly young staff with a lot of college coaches mixed in, will be better at those things.

As far as Loomis not firing DA, I just disagree. I think Loomis was going to fire DA at the end of the season but Gail felt pressure from the players and fans and pulled the trigger. It was probably the right call in the end, but I think Loomis would have done it at the end of the season anyway. FWIW, Underhill said that he thinks Loomis was going to fire DA at the end of the season and he just didn't believe in firing coaches mid-season.

Loomis is still talking about iniuries derailing the season. He had zero plans to fire Dennis. Beyond results. If a Team mutiny isn't enough evidence to fire DA, team injuries were enough to excuse him. Underhill has been on a series of Wrong predictions so thats a huge grain of salt.

 

[kcirdor]

The Saints won 9 games (you could argue it would have been 10 had he not gotten knocked out the GB game) with Carr his first season here and that was with the DA stink running things. Is Carr's ceiling the same with Moore as it was with DA?

We cant argue sheet because DA is known for doing Mora sheet, shutting down the offense and playing prevent defense. Whether Carr was healthy or not, DA was known for the Mora special.

 

[St. Widge]

I don’t mean tear down either. This team is running it back with largely the same roster and the additions and losses of players is pretty much the same as what every team does every year. That doesn’t even indicate a soft rebuild to me.

And I get that there were some coaching issues, but these guys didn’t just forget how to play football and at times they looked completely inept on the field.

I still believe Loomis would have given DA the injury excuse and run it back. Nick and Mike have believed a lot of things about what Loomis would or should do that Loomis then did the opposite of.

I mean, they added Justin Reed and Godchaux to help solve the issues in run defense and Safety. And both are at modest contracts and Godchaux can likely be cut after one year. So it's not like they haven't added any upgrades or they have spent massive money.. But, I also know that you don't want them to crazy in free agency this year.

The only guys they resigned are Young and Johnson who both play positions we are desperate at due to poor or lack of drafting in the past. They paid a bit more than I would have liked for those guys, but they had to pay the desperation tax for being so thin at those positions. I personally would not have brought back Johnson, but there weren't really younger/better options in free agency and being forced to draft two TEs probably also wasn't a good idea. I think we were/are in no win situations at those spots. That' is unless both player unexpectedly break out.

So, if you aren't going to spend big in free agency, the the big changes are going to have to come from the draft. Isn't that the consequence of not spending big in free agency? And wouldn't you be pissed if Loomis went out and spent a bunch of money to upgrade the roster?

As far as DA, he was either a bad coach or he wasn't. If he wasn't a bad coach then maybe this is a 5 win team. But, if he was a bad coach and you take into account injuries, maybe this is a 7 to 9 win team as it stands now prior to the draft.

And nobody know if Loomis was going to fire DA or not. I think he was going to fire him at the end of the season and there are indications from the local guys that he would, but I'll conceded that we don't really know and if DA had somehow gotten to 9 wins he might have stayed. But, I think there is an almost 0 chance he could have won 9 games. Frankly, I doubt he would have won another game after losing to the Panthers. The players were about to revolt. Even Cam asked for a trade.

 

[St. Widge]

Loomis is still talking about iniuries derailing the season. He had zero plans to fire Dennis. Beyond results. If a Team mutiny isn't enough evidence to fire DA, team injuries were enough to excuse him. Underhill has been on a series of Wrong predictions so thats a huge grain of salt.

It wasn't just Underhill and I don't think there was any way that DA could have saved his job after losing to Carolina. He had lost the team, Cam wanted to be traded, and I doubt he would win another game after that. And even if he did win one, I still think he gets fired at the end of the season.

 

[St. Widge]

This. We are restricted from adding this to the discussion because "he who shall not be named" has lifelong employment, which circumvents a significant portion of our current dilemma.

Nothing we can do about Loomis. I see him doing some things that make sense and other that I don't get. Hopefully the good outweighs the bad and Moore is better than DA at identifying talent, developing talent, and putting young players on the field.

 

[BoxerJoe]

Well, 9 games is about the middle of 7 to 10 and they won 7 is 2022. But those 2022 and 2023 teams also had a much better defense than we have now because guys like Cam, Mathieu, and Demario were younger and better and we still had Adebo, Lattimore, and Ellis (Baun too but he had not emerged).

9 and a reasonable argument for 10 is on the high end. I agree with your original point of needing help at OL and WR though if Carr and the team in general are going to have any chance of approaching a good ceiling this upcoming season.

We cant argue sheet because DA is known for doing Mora sheet, shutting down the offense and playing prevent defense. Whether Carr was healthy or not, DA was known for the Mora special.

Yeah, that's the whole point. DA didn't do his players many favors and yet they still won 9 games with Carr at QB.

 

[DSnfla]

Exactly. I can't see Moore giving Carr a pass the way DA did. And, honestly, despite what DA did, according to Underhill (who is apparently a well know Carr hater), the guys on the team don't have any issues with Carr.

From my personal perspective, while I belive Nick that the players don't have an issue with Carr, I also think they know that he isn't their leader, and for the long term, the QB just has to be the leader of your team. I didn't always think that way and I was convinced that although Aaron Brooks wasn't a leader it didn't matter because he was talented and mostly produced on the field. But, I was wrong. QB is a special position and IMO, for a team to succeed long term, the QB has to be the leader of the team and set a tone of accountability. That wasn't happening with Carr under DA because DA was not holding Carr accountable which made it impossible for Carr to hold others acountable.

Maybe that changes when Moore holds Carr accountable.

LOL I never said Nick was a Carr hater, just that he was excessively critical of DC diving to get the 1st in the Giants game.

 

[DSnfla]

That's the thing though, this team isn't trying to rebuild. We need to start taking Loomis at his word. He thinks this is a competitive roster across the board. He thought that DA shouldn't have been fired and I am 100% convinced that had Gayle not pulled the trigger DA would still be coaching the team.

I think it's beyond time to be talking solely about Carr and instead talk about how Loomis is an impediment to actually fielding a successful team. He has the ultimate authority and responsibility for the team and criticism continually gets passed to players, coaches and even his own scouting staff. No real ideological changes are coming for as long as he remains.

It's not just ML that thinks this is a competitive roster CKM and his staff think that as well. ML, like Tom Benson does not believe in firing HCs mid season , THAT'S why ML didn't want to fire DA then. And your conjecture goes against what Underhill said, He thought that ML would have fired DA at the end of the season. So now that DC is going to be on the team this yr you have changed your focus to a fire Loomis one?

 

[DSnfla]

I don't mean rebuild in the sense of tear it down and rebuild. I mean a soft rebuild which is what Loomis called it. I'd rather speed it up by parting ways with Carr, Mathieu, Jordan, and Hill, but they can still rebuild while maintaining a competitive team. But, I honestly don't see the huge difference if this is the last year for Carr, Hill, Jordan, and Mathieu. And even this year, Jordan and Mathieu took pay cuts and I expect Hill will as well.

The key either way is to draft better and then have the coaching staff to develop those players. Frankly whether they tear it down or they continue trying to be competitive, neither is going to work if they don't start drafting better and just draft more players. And, IMO, the draft is how you build a team. Cap money and free agency should be used to sign your own good players to 2nd contracts and to fill in holes before the draft so you can take BPA. But, first, you have to draft players that are worth 2nd contracts.

And some of this, I think comes down to poor coaching. I'll give Kubiak and his people as pass since he was only here for one year, but it does look like a staff that either wasn't good at developing talent or wasn't good at recognizing that talent and playing them. Too often guys leave here a play better either because they weren't developed well enough here or because they just weren't evaluated properly and/or didn't get a chance to play. Hopefully Moore, and his mostly young staff with a lot of college coaches mixed in, will be better at those things.

As far as Loomis not firing DA, I just disagree. I think Loomis was going to fire DA at the end of the season but Gail felt pressure from the players and fans and pulled the trigger. It was probably the right call in the end, but I think Loomis would have done it at the end of the season anyway. FWIW, Underhill said that he thinks Loomis was going to fire DA at the end of the season and he just didn't believe in firing coaches mid-season.

I think that if we would have 6/1 DC this yr that would have made us have to tear it down and rebuild. We would have also not been able to part ways with Mathieu,Cam and Hill. It would have forced us into throw away yrs, yes yrs. We would have either had to go with Rattler ( easy a throw away yr) or sign a cheap vet QB and waste 8-10 mil of that $ we got back from the 6/1 cut of DC on 6/2 . I mean Cooper Rush got a 2yr 12 mil contract.

Other than that I agree with everything you said