salary cap hell! (1 Viewer)

[St. Geezy]

Yes. It was performing at the same record when he left. We can't turn over 60% of the team like we did his first season here. How is that not a problem? and in your opinion the problem is out weighed cause we are a 500 ball club... on the verge of MAYBE making the playoffs and getting bounced.

You do realize we were starting Trevor Simien at QB that year, right? Just checking.

Is it really your opinion that SP over DA isn't worth an extra win or two (at least)?

If anything, SP's performance that year with the circumstances we had was another feather in his cap.

 

[Elvis]

Why do I need to "settle down?" Who says I am not "settled." I am doing the exact same thing as you are, and responding to posts.

How is me pointing out your straw man making me look smart? You are just getting immature and silly now, making things personal just because I don't agree with you. If you don't like straw men getting pointed out, stop using them. If you don't know what a straw man is, go look it up. You do it all the time. If you don't like someone's take, you create a silly, exaggerated version of the take for that person to have to defend against. Saying I said anything close to "We have to hit on ALL draft picks for the strategy to be successful" is indeed the very definition of a straw man debate strategy. Again, if you don't like it being pointed out, stop doing it, because I am a person that does indeed point it out when someone is putting words into my mouth to strengthen their argument.

Agree...teams aren't giving guys Cam Jordan age big money deals...once again, we are definitely doing silly things with our cash, which is the problem.

My argument isn't that the GM and front office staff are perfect. I have said so many times that we suck at player evals and who we spend our money on. I am just saying that the strategy itself isn't effecting who we pick to pay or draft. The strategy itself didn't make us go out and sign the highest APY contract on the market and give it to possibly the wrong guy in Carr. The strategy didn't make us go out and give an older Jordan a big money deal for the sake of it. The strategy didn't make us go out and draft a likely bust in Penning, among many others. The strategy didn't make us go out and get a bad eval on a RB that ended up averaging less than three yards per carry for us. The strategy didn't force us to overdraft a LT that appears to be one of the worst players on the team or give up two firsts for a DE that doesn't love football. The strategy didn't force us to promote Dennis Allen or make Pete Carmichael Jr. our play-caller.

These are the things killing us, not "the strategy."

Ok, so the strategy is tops, it's just that no other team uses it and our team is bad at it. Is that your argument? Because that is a terrible argument.

 

[St. Geezy]

On the cusp? I think that's a naive viewpoint considering Demario and Cam are trending downward quickly amongst other things. I think we'll be stuck striving for mediocrity endlessly unless we rethink our debt cap strategy.

I hate losing like the next guy, but a 9-8 season in the crappiest division and having the weakest schedule is not being on the cusp.

I think Saints fans are spoiled and think if the team isn't absolutely dominating and the QB isn't throwing perfect lasers every week like an A.I. machine then it means the team is awful.

 

[St. Geezy]

Ok, so the strategy is tops, it's just that no other team uses it and our team is bad at it. Is that your argument? Because that is a terrible argument.

There you go again. Exaggerating your opponent's position to make them defend against that position.

You are at least consistent, I'll have to hand that to you.

 

[Elvis]

There you go again. Exaggerating your opponent's position to make them defend against that position.

You are at least consistent, I'll have to hand that to you.

Not exaggerating your point, cutting through the hyperbole.

 

[kcirdor]

You do realize we were starting Trevor Simien at QB that year, right? Just checking.

Loomis was the GM that year too... just keep doing what your doin Loomis...

 

[town123]

I think Saints fans are spoiled and think if the team isn't absolutely dominating and the QB isn't throwing perfect lasers every week like an A.I. machine then it means the team is awful.

I think you're deflecting instead of debating.

 

[saint_drago]

My argument isn't that the GM and front office staff are perfect. I have said so many times that we suck at player evals and who we spend our money on. I am just saying that the strategy itself isn't effecting who we pick to pay or draft. The strategy itself didn't make us go out and sign the highest APY contract on the market and give it to possibly the wrong guy in Carr. The strategy didn't make us go out and give an older Jordan a big money deal for the sake of it. The strategy didn't make us go out and draft a likely bust in Penning, among many others. The strategy didn't make us go out and get a bad eval on a RB that ended up averaging less than three yards per carry for us. The strategy didn't force us to overdraft a LT that appears to be one of the worst players on the team or give up two firsts for a DE that doesn't love football. The strategy didn't force us to promote Dennis Allen or make Pete Carmichael Jr. our play-caller.

These are the things killing us, not "the strategy."

See this is the kind of back and forth that is helpful. This made me think. You make really good points. I think you and I can middle here. I don't like our cap strategy. But I also don't like our overall all in approach. But you point out that the cap strategy didn't play a part in plain old bad signings. Bad signings are bad no matter the cap strategy. I would argue that those signings are part of the overall all in approach but I understand your argument. I would argue that drafting Penning was also part of the all in approach. The Saints needed a WR and a LT to come in and help immediately so they moved heaven and earth to make that happen.

So if we want to separate the cap strategy from the holistic, "all in" approach then that's a solid debate to be had. I think we can agree that it's not just one thing holding this team back. The cap certainly didn't have anything to do with DA and Pete. I see where you're coming from. You don't want people to just blame everything on our cap management and that's fair enough. There's enough nuance here to talk about things without getting personal.

 

[St. Geezy]

Not exaggerating your point, cutting through the hyperbole.

Saying that I said our strategy is the best strategy in the league when in fact I am saying quite the opposite is indeed exaggerating my point, as my point is and always has been that the strategy doesn't matter...picking the right people does.

But you do you.

 

[ItFan]

Cap hell is very real but the facepalmers still don’t get it after all these years.

Cap is a big reason why we have terrible OL & DL. We were not able to fix awful drafts on both lines because we had no space. We signed two replacement level interior DLs, a bunch of no name OLs, and that’s it. Too bad, we needed pass rush and at least one more decent OL.

Next year we have 100 millions allocated to just 5 players (the top paid ones besides DK) who do not deserve that kind of money anymore: Ram 27, Cam 23, Kamara 18, DD 18, Taysom 15.
How do you fix that? Restructure. Restructuring means basically leaving things as they are, rather than falling into debt. In other words, every year we have to pay players way more than their actual value, much more than a team with a healthy cap that can cut players pretty anytime and avoid restructurings.
That’s how you lose games.

Drafts circa 2015-2020 kept us alive with a steady influx of cheap young players, allowing good FA signings, but it’s plain to see that it’s no longer the case. We have 4-5 good young defenders, 2-3 good young receivers, and that’s it. The rest, we overpay or get mediocre contribution.

 

[Elvis]

Saying that I said our strategy is the best strategy in the league when in fact I am saying quite the opposite is indeed exaggerating my point, as my point is and always has been that the strategy doesn't matter...picking the right people does.

But you do you.

The title of this thread is "Salary Cap Hell". It's not "Draft Hell" or "Picking the right people hell" or "Player evaluation hell". You came in to defend the strategy and blame the teams issues on other things.

"But you do you"

 

[St. Geezy]

The title of this thread is "Salary Cap Hell". It's not "Draft Hell" or "Picking the right people hell" or "Player evaluation hell". You came in to defend the strategy and blame the teams issues on other things.

"But you do you"

Arguing with people with your debate style is exhausting. Who cares what the thread title is?

 

[Merl]

I will admit I don't understand all of the ins and outs of the salary cap so question for the cap gurus - how would we get under the cap this year without doing any restructures?

can't be done.

 

[St. Geezy]

See this is the kind of back and forth that is helpful. This made me think. You make really good points. I think you and I can middle here. I don't like our cap strategy. But I also don't like our overall all in approach. But you point out that the cap strategy didn't play a part in plain old bad signings. Bad signings are bad no matter the cap strategy. I would argue that those signings are part of the overall all in approach but I understand your argument. I would argue that drafting Penning was also part of the all in approach. The Saints needed a WR and a LT to come in and help immediately so they moved heaven and earth to make that happen.

So if we want to separate the cap strategy from the holistic, "all in" approach then that's a solid debate to be had. I think we can agree that it's not just one thing holding this team back. The cap certainly didn't have anything to do with DA and Pete. I see where you're coming from. You don't want people to just blame everything on our cap management and that's fair enough. There's enough nuance here to talk about things without getting personal.

Thank you, this is definitely a good common ground.

Just to be clear - my position is that no cap strategy survives draft bust after draft bust, free agent bust after free agent bust, and coaching bust after coaching bust.

I also think there is a misconception out there that teams with cap space health are out here cutting big contract guys all nilly willy without major repercussions that would jeopardize said cap space health. Those teams have the same issue we deal with, only their worry is their present money rather than their future money.

We have to look at the NFL salary cap as endless sets of 5 year intervals, not just singular years. And each of those years, except of course the exact wrong one for us (2021) saw big increases in the dollars available.

Is the system perfect? Hell no. But it is a cycle we have learned to work around and ultimately at the end of the day, football comes down to coaching and making the right calls with the roster/drafting, not an accounting ledger having an annoying negative number at the start of each year.

I mean, we literally drafted the only LT (the second most important position in football IMO) from the first three rounds that isn't capable of starting. We have got to get better.

We probably miss guys like Terry Fontenot more than we realize. That was a huge under-the-radar loss when it comes to evaluating. I'll also add, and many people may not want to hear this, that we can't continue to let SOME people, including a once failed dumpster fire GM, ride the coattails of the anomaly 2017 draft class success.

 

[Judge_Smails]

Do you honestly believe this team would be performing this way if SP was still here? I just can’t get behind the idea that our cap economics are our downfall.

BTW, the “Cap Truthers” keep responding as well. It’s debated…But I guess only your side is allowed to speak though.

For starters, Sean has been gone for over two seasons now. That’s half a career for most nfl players.

There is no way to know how things would be. However, he wouldn’t have guaranteed a mid QB 100 million . And no matter how great he had everything else, he would still have problems because of all the huge guarantees we have tied up for the next few years in players well over 30, due for a quick drop off, and battling career ending injuries.