salary cap hell! (2 Viewers)

[dtc]

All that looks like to me is an even deeper hole. With players we won’t be able to get rid of (trade or cut) if they don’t perform. And that many more years of mediocrity or worse before we clean up our finances (multi-year process now) and can actually compete for a championship.

You want to know what the real myth is?

It's that anyone can trade bad players who don't perform.

 

[St. Geezy]

You want to know what the real myth is?

It's that anyone can trade bad players who don't perform.

You nailed it…This right here is where the Cap Truthers lose me.

Sound cap teams have the same problem just with different cosmetics and restrictions. In order to have a good cap, they still have to make sure they are signing the right people, and when they do sign someone to a big money deal that busts, they too can’t cut them after one year because now all of a sudden their sound cap situation will suffer.

The only reason cutting Carr is on the table for Truthers is because we intentionally wrote his contract the way we did. If we were a sound cap team, we would not have written it this way and we’d be stuck with the same problem because we’d be wanting to avoid a dead money hit one year into the deal with most of that bonus money tied to the beginning of the contract.

Also, people keep mentioning the Bucs as “The right way to do it,” however it’s not like they are some juggernaut; they literally finished with the same record as we did and only made the playoffs due to an arbitrary tiebreaker.

 

[St. Geezy]

Not trying to be rude, but it seems like you’re saying you don’t like reading posts sharing viewpoints you don’t agree with, yet you consistently reply to these posts to chastise those discussing said topics.

It seems you’ve made quite a conundrum for yourself because a lot of Saints fans are going to continue criticizing “kicking the can” for as long as the Saints remain mediocre or worse with an old roster and without a true franchise QB.

Right now it looks like we are barely treading water a little less efficiently each year.

Do you honestly believe this team would be performing this way if SP was still here? I just can’t get behind the idea that our cap economics are our downfall.

BTW, the “Cap Truthers” keep responding as well. It’s debated…But I guess only your side is allowed to speak though.

 

[St. Geezy]

The people responsible for the cap, the draft and hiring of coaches are all the same people. The draft is and will always be a gamble. If your cap strategy relies on hitting all of your draft picks, it's a bad strategy. If you rely on coaches getting the most out of old players on expensive contracts because you missed on draft picks and can't afford to replace the old players because of the cap, it's a bad cap strategy. What you call maximizing the cap only works if both of the other things work but I have yet to see a single team that has made it succeed. This team certainly isn't making it succeed.

No one said your strategy is to hit on ALL of your picks. That’s a straw man if I ever saw one.

There is a difference between being good at drafting versus whiffing consistently. Up until McCoy’s substitution, we were the only team in the NFL that had not drafting a single Pro Bowl performer since 2018. That’s awful.

No one is saying you have to hit on all picks, but hitting on more than a small handful would certainly be nice.

You say the strategy only works if the other two things work, but OF COURSE that’s the case. Yes, for any economic strategy to work, you can’t whiff on who you’re acquiring. We are saying the same thing, only from your perspective you blame the cap for it for your argument’s sake.

 

[Elvis]

You want to know what the real myth is?

It's that anyone can trade bad players who don't perform.

Players get traded all the time for various reasons. Some coaches and GMs can see value in a player even if they didn't perform well for their last team. We just traded Lutz and Trautman last year for late round picks. It's not uncommon to trade players that under perform to teams that have less talent.

Now if you're talking about under performing players with huge contracts, that points back to the question of why we gave them those contracts in the first place. Which is also a GM cap management issue.

 

[St. Geezy]

Players get traded all the time for various reasons. Some coaches and GMs can see value in a player even if they didn't perform well for their last team. We just traded Lutz and Trautman last year for late round picks. It's not uncommon to trade players that under perform to teams that have less talent.

Now if you're talking about under performing players with huge contracts, that points back to the question of why we gave them those contracts in the first place. Which is also a GM cap management issue.

No, it’s a personnel evaluation issue. We simply give big money to the wrong players.

Or are you really saying that the Saints and their boogeyman cap system are the only team that gets ripped off on big money deals, “because cap.”

 

[Elvis]

No one said your strategy is to hit on ALL of your picks. That’s a straw man if I ever saw one.

There is a difference between being good at drafting versus whiffing consistently. Up until McCoy’s substitution, we were the only team in the NFL that had not drafting a single Pro Bowl performer since 2018. That’s awful.

No one is saying you have to hit on all picks, but hitting on more than a small handful would certainly be nice.

You say the strategy only works if the other two things work, but OF COURSE that’s the case. Yes, for any economic strategy to work, you can’t whiff on who you’re acquiring. We are saying the same thing, only from your perspective you blame the cap for it for your argument’s sake.

Settle down. I think you like to throw "straw man" out there because you think it makes you look smart. It doesn't. And we are not saying the same thing at all. The draft and cap management are unrelated. There is no cap strategy that will allow your team to be good if you draft poorly. There is also no draft success that excuses giving declining or injured players MORE guaranteed money to dig out your own past financial mistakes.

What drafting poorly does is make your team bad because you cannot restock the shelves with young players on cheap contract. What managing the cap poorly does is it makes your team bad because it limits your ability to do anything about it regardless of how you draft and leaves you with expensive declining players.

No, it’s a personnel evaluation issue. We simply give big money to the wrong players.

Or are you really saying that the Saints and their boogeyman cap system are the only team that gets ripped off on big money deals, “because cap.”

Sure, there is an occasional contract that teams regret, but they don't have rosters full of them? Ours didn't all start out as big money contracts. They started out as reasonable contracts that got restructured into bad contracts full of back loaded guaranteed money. Most teams give guys at Cam Jordans age and position 1 year deals for reasonable money. They aren't getting $13 million in guaranteed money with a $23 million cap hit from past restructures.

 

[ItFan]

Salary cap hell is a myth. It’s really not hard at all for the FO to clear 83 million plus additional cap space. The restructures are preplanned every year. Might not be a preferred position to be in but it comes with
re-signing many great players to maintain a good team and attractive destination.

Until you get stuck with unwanted players or still have a cap hit when they play for somebody else

 

[kcirdor]

I think there is a fundamental misunderstanding between Cap Defenders and Cap Truthers. The Cap Defenders keep explaining the process and how it works. They pat the chicken littles on the head and tell them there is nothing to worry about. Cap Truthers understand the how, they just don't understand the why. Why operate like this? Why leave yourself so little wiggle room and no margin for error? Why operate with so little flexibility? Why is the house on fire but nobody else seems to notice?

Thank you. Whats really annoying is people acting like we are too stupid to understand accounting or how debt works.

 

[St. Geezy]

Settle down. I think you like to throw "straw man" out there because you think it makes you look smart. It doesn't. And we are not saying the same thing at all. The draft and cap management are unrelated. There is no cap strategy that will allow your team to be good if you draft poorly. There is also no draft success that excuses giving declining or injured players MORE guaranteed money to dig out your own past financial mistakes.

What drafting poorly does is make your team bad because you cannot restock the shelves with young players on cheap contract. What managing the cap poorly does is it makes your team bad because it limits your ability to do anything about it regardless of how you draft and leaves you with expensive declining players.


Sure, there is an occasional contract that teams regret, but they don't have rosters full of them? Ours didn't all start out as big money contracts. They started out as reasonable contracts that got restructured into bad contracts full of back loaded guaranteed money. Most teams give guys at Cam Jordans age and position 1 year deals for reasonable money. They aren't getting $13 million in guaranteed money with a $23 million cap hit from past restructures.

Why do I need to "settle down?" Who says I am not "settled." I am doing the exact same thing as you are, and responding to posts.

How is me pointing out your straw man making me look smart? You are just getting immature and silly now, making things personal just because I don't agree with you. If you don't like straw men getting pointed out, stop using them. If you don't know what a straw man is, go look it up. You do it all the time. If you don't like someone's take, you create a silly, exaggerated version of the take for that person to have to defend against. Saying I said anything close to "We have to hit on ALL draft picks for the strategy to be successful" is indeed the very definition of a straw man debate strategy. Again, if you don't like it being pointed out, stop doing it, because I am a person that does indeed point it out when someone is putting words into my mouth to strengthen their argument.

Agree...teams aren't giving guys Cam Jordan age big money deals...once again, we are definitely doing silly things with our cash, which is the problem.

My argument isn't that the GM and front office staff are perfect. I have said so many times that we suck at player evals and who we spend our money on. I am just saying that the strategy itself isn't effecting who we pick to pay or draft. The strategy itself didn't make us go out and sign the highest APY contract on the market and give it to possibly the wrong guy in Carr. The strategy didn't make us go out and give an older Jordan a big money deal for the sake of it. The strategy didn't make us go out and draft a likely bust in Penning, among many others. The strategy didn't make us go out and get a bad eval on a RB that ended up averaging less than three yards per carry for us. The strategy didn't force us to overdraft a LT that appears to be one of the worst players on the team or give up two firsts for a DE that doesn't love football. The strategy didn't force us to promote Dennis Allen or make Pete Carmichael Jr. our play-caller.

These are the things killing us, not "the strategy."

 

[St. Geezy]

By the way, does this thread and overall position of Cap Truthers even exist if we make a single FG in GB or our TE doesn't drop a pass versus Jacksonville and we are sitting at 10-7/11-6 and building on a division title season?

Point is, people are acting like we are coming off a 4-13 season and using that as proof that the strategy has destroyed us. No, we are a team hovering around .500 that believes it has the core in place, with a few tweaks to the roster and coaching staff, and a little less BAD LUCK from being a 10-11 win team. Despite all the draft whiffs and bad personnel evals, here we are, on the cusp, and finished the year in a positive fashion.

People are even using the Bucs as some gold standard when they literally finished with the same exact record as we did and we split with each other. It's crazy.

 

[kcirdor]

Do you honestly believe this team would be performing this way if SP was still here?

Yes. It was performing at the same record when he left. We can't turn over 60% of the team like we did his first season here. How is that not a problem? and in your opinion the problem is out weighed cause we are a 500 ball club... on the verge of MAYBE making the playoffs and getting bounced.

 

[kcirdor]

Yes. This thread exists, every off season... until we win the super bowl. Thank you.. come back next week for this thread all over again.

 

[kcirdor]

Barely making the playoffs means nothing when nearly half the league is in the playoffs.

 

[town123]

On the cusp? I think that's a naive viewpoint considering Demario and Cam are trending downward quickly amongst other things. I think we'll be stuck striving for mediocrity endlessly unless we rethink our debt cap strategy.

I hate losing like the next guy, but a 9-8 season in the crappiest division and having the weakest schedule is not being on the cusp.