Should we give up next year's first to move up in the draft? (1 Viewer)

[bergeaux]

Yes

I don't agree

Fair enough

 

[Saint Droopy]

This is a losers philosophy. A winners philosophy is to build a team to win over the long haul.

We have a 2007 draft full of guys that barely saw the field in 07... I doubt our future will be scarred by giving up one pick. hell our 1st rounder in 07 didn't even see the active roster. not to say it WILL happen again, but facts are facts.

Look at NE last year, they had all the talent and should have, but it didn't happen in the end. It's better to be really dang good for 5 years and have 5 shots at winning it all, than to shoot everything now and hope that this is your year to win.

I think more than HALF of New England's are players that were signed via FA... not drafted by them. Merriweather is the only player from their draft that made the squad last year ( think). And I'm only talking about 1 pick man you act as though I'm pulling a "Ditka"...

The way to win is to build a team that has several years of good runs and one year you have the luck to win it all. If you get really good, you may, just may end up building a team like the 90's Cowboys, 80's 49ers, and the current Cots and Pats.

True... they drafted well. And this team has had one good draft (jury is still out on 07 class). All of the teams you mentioned drafted their way into super bowl titles... but don't think for a second that these teams didn't take risks to make their teams better. We can debate this until we're tired of typing... but giving away 1 pick won't kill our team.

Would you rather go into this season aremd with a our 6 picks and NOT address the DT position? Vilma would get killed.

Even if we trade up to get Ellis we'd have to give up additional pick(s) that may be from this years draft. What's the difference? You give up a 2nd/3rd rounder in THIS years draft, and now we can't address a need for the 2008 season... and we just took the 2nd best DT in the draft.

When we could have (probably) had the best DT in the draft... kept our picks in this year's draft, and filled holes that can help us THIS YEAR.

Maybe I'm alone on this one... and that's cool.. its fun to talk about stuff we have absolutely NO control over.

Whatever the FO does... I just hope it leads us to where we want to go.

 

[bergeaux]

I think more than HALF of New England's are players that were signed via FA... not drafted by them. Merriweather is the only player from their draft that made the squad last year ( think). And I'm only talking about 1 pick man you act as though I'm pulling a "Ditka"...

Check that again: Yahoo! Sports - NFL - New England Patriots - Depth Chart
(note that their CB Jason Webster is a replacement for Samuel and Eric Alexander has replaced Rosevelt Colvin)

Starters that were drafted by NE (14):

Tom Brady
Ben Watson
Matt Light
Logan Mankins
Dan Koppen
Stephen Neal
Nick Kazur
Ty Warren
Vince Wilfork
Richard Seymour
Tedy Bruschi
Asante Samuel
Ellis Hobbs
James Sanders

Starters that were not drafted by NE (7):

Randy Moss
Wes Welker
Heath Evans
Mike Vrabel
Adalius Thomas
Rosevelt Colvin
Rodney Harrison

On top of that, NE had a distinct advantage in FA. They have won 3 SBs recently and players near the end of their career are willing to go there and sign for probably less to have a chance to win.

True... they drafted well. And this team has had one good draft (jury is still out on 07 class). All of the teams you mentioned drafted their way into super bowl titles... but don't think for a second that these teams didn't take risks to make their teams better. We can debate this until we're tired of typing... but giving away 1 pick won't kill our team.

I'm not saying that you don't take risks, I'm saying that you don't gamble the future away. Yes you have to take risks. Trading BACK is a risk, which is what most of the good teams have done lately.

Would you rather go into this season aremd with a our 6 picks and NOT address the DT position? Vilma would get killed.

You make it seem like if we don't give up our 1st and trade up to get Dorsey, we can't address the DT position. Ellis could fall to us at 10? Laws, Balmer, or a host of other DTs could fall to us, heck we could trade back and pick up more picks and pick up TWO good DTs instead of one.

Even if we trade up to get Ellis we'd have to give up additional pick(s) that may be from this years draft. What's the difference? You give up a 2nd/3rd rounder in THIS years draft, and now we can't address a need for the 2008 season... and we just took the 2nd best DT in the draft.

Again, you make the assumption that if we don't get Dorsey or Ellis, we aren't addressing the DT position and I don't agree with that.

When we could have (probably) had the best DT in the draft... kept our picks in this year's draft, and filled holes that can help us THIS YEAR.

Again, I say build for the long term is smarter.

Maybe I'm alone on this one... and that's cool.. its fun to talk about stuff we have absolutely NO control over.

Whatever the FO does... I just hope it leads us to where we want to go.

So true, we have no control and ultimately little real understanding of what it's like to make these decisions. It's easy for us to argue back and forth and never really pay the price for a bad decision. : )

Totally agree about the hopes, I hope that in the end they make the decision that makes us a lot better. If it's to take some risks trading up and it works, I will LOVE eating crow as I buy my SB champion Saints gear. If that's to stay or trade back, I will just as happy.

 

[Saint Droopy]

Check that again: Yahoo! Sports - NFL - New England Patriots - Depth Chart
(note that their CB Jason Webster is a replacement for Samuel and Eric Alexander has replaced Rosevelt Colvin)

Starters that were drafted by NE (14):

Tom Brady
Ben Watson
Matt Light
Logan Mankins
Dan Koppen
Stephen Neal
Nick Kazur
Ty Warren
Vince Wilfork
Richard Seymour
Tedy Bruschi
Asante Samuel
Ellis Hobbs
James Sanders

Starters that were not drafted by NE (7):

Randy Moss
Wes Welker
Heath Evans
Mike Vrabel
Adalius Thomas
Rosevelt Colvin
Rodney Harrison

On top of that, NE had a distinct advantage in FA. They have won 3 SBs recently and players near the end of their career are willing to go there and sign for probably less to have a chance to win.



I'm not saying that you don't take risks, I'm saying that you don't gamble the future away. Yes you have to take risks. Trading BACK is a risk, which is what most of the good teams have done lately.



You make it seem like if we don't give up our 1st and trade up to get Dorsey, we can't address the DT position. Ellis could fall to us at 10? Laws, Balmer, or a host of other DTs could fall to us, heck we could trade back and pick up more picks and pick up TWO good DTs instead of one.



Again, you make the assumption that if we don't get Dorsey or Ellis, we aren't addressing the DT position and I don't agree with that.



Again, I say build for the long term is smarter.




So true, we have no control and ultimately little real understanding of what it's like to make these decisions. It's easy for us to argue back and forth and never really pay the price for a bad decision. : )

Totally agree about the hopes, I hope that in the end they make the decision that makes us a lot better. If it's to take some risks trading up and it works, I will LOVE eating crow as I buy my SB champion Saints gear. If that's to stay or trade back, I will just as happy.

Man up until yesterday I was on the side of the fence that YOU DO NOT TRADE UP... but since the FO seem to (probably) think that moving up is what they may want to do... I jumped on that side.

We'll see in due time. hell Dorsey might fall to 10... hey if the Giants can beat NE in the Super Bowl then anything is possible

Here's to a productive draft, and a Saints game in Tampa in February!

 

[CHI-TOWNSAINT]

If you mean with St. Louis, Linehan is a year away from being fired. Next years draft picks mean little to him. It'll have to be this years picks.

Is Linehan the GM?

 

[LSSpam]

Starters that were drafted by NE (14):

Starters that were not drafted by NE (7):

Possible 2008 line-up

Starters drafted by NO

Deuce/Bush
Mike Karney
Jammal Brown
Jahri Evans
Jon Stinchomb
Marques Colston
Will Smith
Charles Grant
Josh Bullocks
Roman Harper

That's 10, counting Deuce/Bush as 1. Andy Alleman at LG, Robert Meachem at WR, and Usama Young at CB could push it to as high as 13. That's in year 3 of the Loomis/Payton combination, as opposed to year 8 of Belicheck's reign in New England.

We already compare very favorably

 

[bergeaux]

Man up until yesterday I was on the side of the fence that YOU DO NOT TRADE UP... but since the FO seem to (probably) think that moving up is what they may want to do... I jumped on that side.

We'll see in due time. hell Dorsey might fall to 10... hey if the Giants can beat NE in the Super Bowl then anything is possible

Here's to a productive draft, and a Saints game in Tampa in February!

Agreed, here's to a productive draft and the Saints in Tampa! :highfive:

 

[CHI-TOWNSAINT]

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't think we have progressed yet. I think we are at best status quo. Mostly because MM will be coming back from knee surgery and won't be back on the field until several games into the season. Vilma is coming back from an injury, so you have to be careful there.

In the NFL, you have to continually get better to compete with the rest of the teams. If you stay the same, you have regressed. We have gotten better in some areas, stayed the same in others, but gotten worse in some.

Oh and don't be deceived by only 8 years of experience, Brian Young is 31, which to me is old for a DT in the trenches.

Also let me say, I HOPE that I am completely wrong and will happily eat crow if we don't draft a bunch of defensive talent and still come out better. Fortunately, I have a feeling we are going to have a couple of hits on defense in this draft and we will never know for sure if we were good or bad before the draft. Let's hope so at least.

First, Every report I've heard about MM has him back for Training camp. You can speculate, but I'll go off of doctor reports and the teams opinion.

Second, how has adding Vima, Morgan, McCray, Gay, Glenn not made every aspect of our D better? We added a D-Linemen givingus a lot of flexibility, two LBers that will start Game 1 and are huge upgrades and two CB's both of wo would have gotten extended minutes last year.

Thirdly, none of this counts the draft......I think we are leaps and bounds better than our defense in '06 much less '07. And, I, honestly, don't know how you could argue that.

 

[BIGPOPPA]

The problem with 12 months no interest plans.....12 months ALWAYS comes around. My point is, once next year's draft get's here, we'll be missing that 1st rd pick. Don't bet the farm on next year's crop.

 

[bergeaux]

Possible 2008 line-up

Starters drafted by NO

Deuce/Bush
Mike Karney
Jammal Brown
Jahri Evans
Jon Stinchomb
Marques Colston
Will Smith
Charles Grant
Josh Bullocks
Roman Harper

That's 10, counting Deuce/Bush as 1. Andy Alleman at LG, Robert Meachem at WR, and Usama Young at CB could push it to as high as 13. That's in year 3 of the Loomis/Payton combination, as opposed to year 8 of Belicheck's reign in New England.

We already compare very favorably

I wasn't arguing the actual ratio Spam He said that NE was made up of over half FA, and I was just making the point that it wasn't the case. Remember my post a while back about this? Interesting statistics about our roster and the comparison to the top teams - SaintsReport Community Forums

You were the first post on that thread.

 

[bergeaux]

First, Every report I've heard about MM has him back for Training camp. You can speculate, but I'll go off of doctor reports and the teams opinion.

Second, how has adding Vima, Morgan, McCray, Gay, Glenn not made every aspect of our D better? We added a D-Linemen givingus a lot of flexibility, two LBers that will start Game 1 and are huge upgrades and two CB's both of wo would have gotten extended minutes last year.

Thirdly, none of this counts the draft......I think we are leaps and bounds better than our defense in '06 much less '07. And, I, honestly, don't know how you could argue that.

Didn't notice the report about MM reporting to training camp. That's great news and changes my opinion slightly.

I think the only one of those players we picked up that is really a playmaker is Vilma. Morgan is, but I really don't expect him to play long. We can't bet on that. (see my earlier post about solid vs. playmakers) The rest are SOLID players and as I said before, we need 1 or 2 more playmakers instead of SOLID players. That's what I am refering too.

I get where both you and Spam are coming from, but I don't think I see any "wow" players besides Vilma and that's what we need. Our defense really hasn't been bad, it's been average and I don't think Gay, McCray or Glenn make it tremendously better. I think they keep the status quo. Morgan COULD do that if he stays healthy, but I don't want to trust that.

 

[BREW]

Never give up a first round pick, unless its for a first round pick + players

 

[CHI-TOWNSAINT]

Didn't notice the report about MM reporting to training camp. That's great news and changes my opinion slightly.

I think the only one of those players we picked up that is really a playmaker is Vilma. Morgan is, but I really don't expect him to play long. We can't bet on that. (see my earlier post about solid vs. playmakers) The rest are SOLID players and as I said before, we need 1 or 2 more playmakers instead of SOLID players. That's what I am refering too.

I get where both you and Spam are coming from, but I don't think I see any "wow" players besides Vilma and that's what we need. Our defense really hasn't been bad, it's been average and I don't think Gay, McCray or Glenn make it tremendously better. I think they keep the status quo. Morgan COULD do that if he stays healthy, but I don't want to trust that.

If we get Ellis or Dorsey,that gives us Smith, MM, Dorsey and Vilma...there's your four. If we miss out on Ellis or Dorsey, we'd still be drafting at 10 and would be able to land a highly rated CB or Rivers, either of whom could be playmakers, especially if the CB returns kickoffs and punts too.

Trying to think of some, but I can't really think of any defenses that have 4 true playmakers on defense.

Bucs - Brooks, Barber
Patriots - Seymour, Samuel, Vrabel maybe

two or three seems to be the number you need.

 

[bergeaux]

If we get Ellis or Dorsey,that gives us Smith, MM, Dorsey and Vilma...there's your four. If we miss out on Ellis or Dorsey, we'd still be drafting at 10 and would be able to land a highly rated CB or Rivers, either of whom could be playmakers, especially if the CB returns kickoffs and punts too.

Trying to think of some, but I can't really think of any defenses that have 4 true playmakers on defense.

Bucs - Brooks, Barber
Patriots - Seymour, Samuel, Vrabel maybe

two or three seems to be the number you need.

You're making sense to me (still wouldn't trade up for Ellis or Dorsey though) and maybe we aren't as far as I thought (MM being back for the full season helps a lot), but I do think that most potent offenses or defenses have 3 or 4 big play guys.

NE in the big D years had Vrabel, Bruschi, Seymore, Ty Law, and Harrison. Indy has Manning, Harrison, Wayne, Clark and Adai. Back in the day TB had Warren Sapp, Simeon Rice, Derrick Brooks John Lynch and Ronde Barber.

In order to be a dominant defense we need at least one more playmaker. IMHO. Two would be more solid to me. Honestly we are barely there on offense. We really need a TE that is a playmaker to solidify us there.

 

[CHI-TOWNSAINT]

You're making sense to me (still wouldn't trade up for Ellis or Dorsey though) and maybe we aren't as far as I thought (MM being back for the full season helps a lot), but I do think that most potent offenses or defenses have 3 or 4 big play guys.

NE in the big D years had Vrabel, Bruschi, Seymore, Ty Law, and Harrison. Indy has Manning, Harrison, Wayne, Clark and Adai. Back in the day TB had Warren Sapp, Simeon Rice, Derrick Brooks John Lynch and Ronde Barber.

In order to be a dominant defense we need at least one more playmaker. IMHO. Two would be more solid to me. Honestly we are barely there on offense. We really need a TE that is a playmaker to solidify us there.

See but now you're greying the lines between an All-Time great defense to a top 10 defense. Those defenses and offenses you listed there are All-Time greats. We just need a top 10 defense to go with our #1 or 2 ranked offense to be Superbowl Contenders.

There's the difference......